One Vision - Good enough for seperation?

[Cottage]

My wife and I do not share a common vision for our family, specifically with regard to having children. We dated for a very long time as we would not get married if children were not in the plan. I was open and honest with my feelings regarding children beginning when marriage looked like it would happen for us. Eventually we did agree that we both wanted a family, and after a couple of years of marriage had a wonderful Daughter who is now 3 years old. I was hopeful that the great experience we have had with our first Daughter would lead to a natural transition to a larger family and another child.

Now my wife indicates that she only had our first Daughter "for me" and that she got no joy out of the experience, it essentially cramped her style to say it nicely. She abhorred the entire first year and has no desire to go again. We have talked at length about the advantages (to the children) of avoiding having just one child if we could and now she does not recall having that discussion.

We had an honest discussion a few weeks ago about priorities and what our vision was for the rest of our life, and even though we essentially agreed that we do not have very much in common we are partners in life and very much still in love - lets keep working at it. I asserted that I did not think our marriage was viable long term if we did not make some changes in other areas and openly address the disparity in our vision concerning more children.

Some time has passed and we have moved back into common patterns of half smiles and avoiding conversation politely. The key issue still sits just below the surface, I am simply not happy with one child. We have a good life and all of the good things in it, and our Daughter is everything a person could hope for.

All that said, you can not stand in the middle of a river and not be swept away. I can't have such strong feelings about having more children and just hope it subsides. My Daughter is the best and most important thing in my life. I want her to have a little brother or sister, and I want to enjoy more children as much as I have enjoyed her.

Many of my friends and co-workers etc... continue to add to their families with ease. I am ready call it quits with my wife and hope to begin again with someone who values what I value. I am not the kind of person to come home and just move out, I am lost. Truly, I have lost myself in this marriage.

[Luba]

I am wondering if she is suffering from Postpartum depression. It would be a good idea to talk it out in a loving, caring manner. Things change, people change but how it is all approached is the key whether things can be changed or stay the same, or get worse. It's not about taking it out on each other, but communicating about the situation. I think it's great that you both decided to keep working on it, but a kind and caring opening back to communication will help, IMHO. No anger, no 'you said, I said', keep it in the now and go on from there.

[TKDLady]

I guess I am having a hard time with this one. I can understand your wife's point of view. I wanted 6 kids at one time. After the first one I changed my mind and decided 2 would be enough. It changes your body dramatically. It is hard on a woman's body to have a child. In my case, I had to have C-Sections for both. I didn't want to go through that again. I so desperately wanted a natural child birth and couldn't do it. Labor is painful. I did go through labor with my second one and it just didn't work out. Not all women get over it. She may have wanted more before she actually got pregnant and when you both first talked about it. But after the actual pregnancy and birth she obviously changed her mind. Do you love her? Was having kids the only reason you married her? What if, after you were married, you found out that she was unable to produce children? I understand you want children but there had to be more between you than that when you asked her to marry you. You have to do what you think is right. I am just trying to give you some things to think about before you take that step toward divorce. You need to be happy in your life together. I truly hope you are able to work something out. It sounds like you have invested a lot of time and effort in this marriage. Marriage is give and take. Things change, people change. We either learn to accept these changes or we are destined for unhappiness. Good luck Cottage in what ever decision you make. Please keep us posted.

[Cottage]

Do you love her? Was having kids the only reason you married her? What if, after you were married, you found out that she was unable to produce children? I understand you want children but there had to be more between you than that when you asked her to marry you.

Those are fair questions. Yes I lover her, we have a wonderful history together and have made a good life for ourselves for the most part. Kids were a primary reason for getting married. We dated for several years as I mentioned and never seriously considered marriage until we had mutually decided on kids.

There is no reason to ask "what if", she is healthy and has no physical issues that precludes her from having children. If she were physically unable to bear children then I would begin looking at adoption as an option. I understand being pregnant is difficult, but she seemed to handle it very well, and she had a lot of support.

Even if she had a difficult pregnancy, there is a semblance of selfishness there, having children is inherently selfless. If you suffer for nine months to create a new life and add to your family, that is well worth the sacrifice. If it's not then I guess I have answered my own questions.

[Cottage]

Originally Posted by Luba

I am wondering if she is suffering from Postpartum depression. It would be a good idea to talk it out in a loving, caring manner. Things change, people change but how it is all approached is the key whether things can be changed or stay the same, or get worse. It's not about taking it out on each other, but communicating about the situation. I think it's great that you both decided to keep working on it, but a kind and caring opening back to communication will help, IMHO. No anger, no 'you said, I said', keep it in the now and go on from there.

Good thought, she did in the first six months or so, I ran my business out of our home so I was there a lot in the first year. She had a lot of support but I would say she had mild PPD.

I have tried to avoid confrontation, while not seeming "distracted" but it is getting silly now, it's the elephant in the room thing...

[TKDLady]

I hope I didn't come across as unfeeling of your situation. I do understand. Having children isn't for everyone however. She obviously wanted to be with you and to try to be a mother too. Unfortunately the reality isn't the same as the dream. I hope you can work it out with each other. You seem to have a good life otherwise.

[Luba]

Cottage, my heart goes out to the both of you! This is HUGE for the both of you! You obviously LOVE children to the Nth degree and make a Wonderful Dad! Something, however, has changed your wife's mind. I think it is up to you both to communicate in a very Loving, Listening, Open-minded manner and really come to terms what you both want in life. The fortunate thing is you both Deeply love each other and want to save your marriage. I just had a thought, maybe that's what she wants Now, but could change her mind later; is that possible? Could she be suffering from depression? Does she feel 'stifled' somehow being 'just a Mom'? IMHO there is NO such thing as being 'just a Mom' that is the most incredible 'job' in the world. Does she have outside interests. Maybe, Cottage, you can both decide on more outside interests time for her, like a shopping trip, or coffee with friends, or card game nights with the girls, while you spend time with your precious child. Just some ideas! I'm on the side of Love and Preserving it!

[Cottage]

Originally Posted by Luba

Cottage, my heart goes out to the both of you! This is HUGE for the both of you! You obviously LOVE children to the Nth degree and make a Wonderful Dad! Something, however, has changed your wife's mind. I think it is up to you both to communicate in a very Loving, Listening, Open-minded manner and really come to terms what you both want in life. The fortunate thing is you both Deeply love each other and want to save your marriage. I just had a thought, maybe that's what she wants Now, but could change her mind later; is that possible? Could she be suffering from depression? Does she feel 'stifled' somehow being 'just a Mom'? IMHO there is NO such thing as being 'just a Mom' that is the most incredible 'job' in the world. Does she have outside interests. Maybe, Cottage, you can both decide on more outside interests time for her, like a shopping trip, or coffee with friends, or card game nights with the girls, while you spend time with your precious child. Just some ideas! I'm on the side of Love and Preserving it!

I think as our Daughter gets older and the distance gets longer between kids she would actually feel less compelled to go again. I don't see any of the clinical signs of depression but I'm not a doctor. She has a rich life between family, friends, and outlets that satisfy her. I think she is very much fulfilled and that is a key contributor to her not wanting to introduce any change in her life. The hard truth is she has two horses and works with horses as her part time job and that she values her interaction with horses more than growing our family. Between my commitment as a Father and our proximity to her parents she can essentially go when and where she wants, mostly to the barn, or to activities derived from horses. We both think it is important to spend time out of the house separately, in fact we have come to the conclusion that we really don't enjoy a lot of the same things, and that's OK, it allows us to do the things we do enjoy with our friends and ourselves. Mostly we enjoy just spending time together, doing things outdoors, etc...but our hobbies and entertainment likes are disparate.

We did have a very good talk about the situation as I indicated, but again there has been no follow through. We talked about taking a trip, just the two of us this year, maybe that will help. Part of me strongly believes that she is just trying to keep her life the way it is for as long as possible, and again that's just plain selfish. I don't want to grow our family just for me, giving our Daughter a sibling gives her someone that can be there for her after we are gone. It gives her a peer to play with and learn with, and it gives the next generation cousins, the most underrated of family members

Seriously though the decision to have children affects all of us, and I wish she would appreciate that. I know a number of only children who wish they had siblings well into their adult life and I don't want that for our Daughter.

[Luba]

Cottage, is your wife an only child, or does she have siblings she is close/not close to? Just trying to think of every channel of exploration to understand her mindset.

[Cottage]

She has a twin brother (we're both twins). She is not particularly close to her brother. Her brother and his girlfriend do come over socially and for holidays and such. When there is an issue in the family (they have a large family) or when things get tough they do gravitate to one another as you would expect. Her brother is Godfather to our Daughter so he does make a point to spend time at our house or he and I will do things with my Daughter.

[Meanon]

Welcome to lifesupporters. I understand your strength of feeling in this matter, summed up very well by your feelings of not having more children being akin to standing in the river trying not to get swept away by the torrent. Marriages are about communication and compromise but if a value is critical to our happiness then it does need to be one that's shared. So I do understand why you are considering separation.

However, compromise is only possible if you truly understand and respect each other's viewpoints. It may help, therefore, to have some different perspectives on your wife's views than your own. Because of this, I will share my perspective which is probably one of sympathy for your wife's viewpoint not because I feel that she is right and you are wrong, but so that you may continue the process of exploring with your wife and elsewhere what the scope is for those strong feelings subsiding enough for you to stay upright in that river.

Both of your viewpoints are understandable from your own perspectives. Reading between the lines, your wife may have had major reservations about having kids from the beginning. There's absolutely no point blaming her for not realising where you may end up. It's very common for people to be very anxious about having kids, but they know it's common and everyone tells them that their feelings will change as they get older, that once you have kids you love it and would never have it any other way.

She loves you, she knows how important it is to you, you won't marry her without it, she figures she will eventually want them or will feel OK about it when she has them. She compromises and has a child. She's unhappy, yes she loves the child, but she now knows she doesn't want another.

From her point of view, she did it for you and now your desire for another is such that you would be prepared to leave her and the child she had for you. It's not really possible to compromise on having a child, you do or don't, but from her point of view accepting having one when she has made a compromise for you and found it so hard may seem perfectly reasonable. Asking her to do something again that made her so unhappy may seem very unreasonable. It's not selfish not to want a child, or not to have one if you don't want one. Children need a great deal of love, attention and emotional support for most of their life, ideally from two parents. It is irresponsible to have a child if you do not feel emotionally equipped to provide this. There are benefits and draw backs to being an only child, it's not the case that these children are more unhappy, lonely or are in any way disadvantaged.

I think it speaks volumes that you have only just found out that your wife had no joy in an experience that was so different for you. The foundation of a relationship is communication and for you to not know something so fundamental shows that you were not able to share the experience in any meaningful way. This may be a reflection of the way things have always been between you which is why you may be having these problems in the first place, or it could be the fall out of post natal depression in which case the more time that passes, the less scary the prospect of another will seem. If you can reassess, from hindsight, how big her reservations were before she had your daughter, that will give you an indication - I suspect that the communication problems preceded the birth. You would be wise not to have another child until these problems are resolved and maybe the resolution may give her the confidence that she wouldn't suffer alone next time and that may make the difference in choosing to have another go. It's a hopeful sign that you agreed to work on things together.

Finally, if I were her, I'd find it very hard indeed that you would place a higher importance on an unborn child/children than on the value you place in your wife and child, in your family. I'd find it difficult to relate to a possible, dubious disadvantage to my child of not having a sibling when not having daddy around was viewed as an acceptable way forward.

My advice: the kids issue is symptomatic of an underlying problem and it would be a pity to end the marriage and split up the family without seeing what potential for happiness you may have if you can fix the underlying problem in the relationship together.

I am interested in you saying you have lost yourself in the marriage. It sounds as if you too may have felt alone. Did you ever have that shared vision? Was the vision at one time about what you had together, with the assumption that children would join that, become part of that? How important is this view of yourself as the head of a large family, why is it so fundamental to your happiness? What would happen if you left your wife and still didn't achieve it? Would you be happy knowing that you had tried and could still strive for it, or would it negatively affect your view of yourself and your worth or purpose in life? I'm not suggesting you answer all of these things here but the answers may begin to lead you to question whether it is healthy to invest so much of your sense of yourself in areas outside of your control (kids, work etc).

No-one should live an unhappy life out of a sense of duty - not you in remaining nor her in having more children. Your marriage will only work if you can both find yourself in it, in each other primarily, in your child and in whatever you can jointly share which brings you pleasure, achievement and fulfilment.

[Meanon]

OK that takes the record as the longest post I've ever written!

[Cottage]

Originally Posted by Meanon

OK that takes the record as the longest post I've ever written!

Thanks for the feedback and perspective, that must have taken a lot of time and energy and I appreciate it. I think this is a great site and this is indicative of the quality of folks on it!

Clearly communication has been an issue with us for a long time now and that has led to what you characterized as a "sudden realization". We have been together a long time as I would suspect in many marriages much goes unsaid in the interest of maintaining normalcy.

It is harsh and stereotypical to characterize a separation as "leaving my wife and Child" or "not having Daddy around" as I would no longer be living with my wife which is not to say I would no longer be living with my Daughter. After reading about my affinity, love and skill as a Father why would you assume my Wife would be the one raising our Daughter?

She definitely loves me and as I mentioned she articulated that she essentially had our Daughter for me. That said, I maintain that we talked about the nature of our family before we started it and now I feel a bit duped. She has been a great Mother, but for some reason she does not see that and I think that has some bearing on the situation. I think some of it stems from my driving some of the milestones little ones go through e.g. sleeping through the night, getting off the bottle, potty training, etc...My Wife was not interested or felt incapable of driving these milestones and I don't know why that is. But looking at it objectively I think that is part of the issue now. It's not that I am overbearing, I just saw that she wasn't going to take that role so I pragmatically got it done. She was miserable not sleeping for example, as was I, and it went on for much longer than necessary and finally I just took control of that situation and a couple nights later it was 8-10 hours of sleep for everyone.

Same with the baby bottles which went like this...
Wife: "I'm going on a trip for the weekend"
Me: "Have a good time"
Wife on return: "Where did the bottles go?"
Me: "In the garbage, she hasn't had one since Friday night"
Wife: "cool"

Same with the pooping on the potty...
Wife: "I'm camping with my girlfriends"
Me: "Have a good time"
Wife on return: "She's wearing panties!"
Me: "We worked on it all weekend, she just needed to get over the hump"

Maybe she feels like less of a Mother because I have taken some of the "traditional" roles and flipped them (I also do the preponderance of the grocery shopping and cooking because I like to). Maybe that has led her to feel like being a Mother is not job #1. That said, looking back I have been very involved and done what I would think are all the right things and now we find ourselves in this situation...

I am interested in you saying you have lost yourself in the marriage. It sounds as if you too may have felt alone. Did you ever have that shared vision? Was the vision at one time about what you had together, with the assumption that children would join that, become part of that? How important is this view of yourself as the head of a large family, why is it so fundamental to your happiness? What would happen if you left your wife and still didn't achieve it? Would you be happy knowing that you had tried and could still strive for it, or would it negatively affect your view of yourself and your worth or purpose in life? I'm not suggesting you answer all of these things here but the answers may begin to lead you to question whether it is healthy to invest so much of your sense of yourself in areas outside of your control (kids, work etc).

The experiences I have had as a Father have given me more joy and satisfaction than anything else in life, including marriage without Children. I enjoyed very much the years my Wife and I dated and were married before we started a family but in a more selfish, fleeting way. Traveling is fun, partying with friends is fun, great food is fun, little responsibility is fun, but none of these are as profoundly joyous as having Children. I still like to do all of these things but not as much as I like to simply be with my family. I don't consider myself as the head of the family in a "Godfather" way, I consider Matriarch's to be the true heads of families, but to my point earlier that's just not who my Wife is. IF it came to separation or divorce I may never find someone who TRULY shares my vision of a great life, but I may never know if I am not truthful enough to have tried.

Clearly I don't want any of this to happen, and I am not here looking for validation, rather just to talk it out. So thanks again!

[Meanon]

Originally Posted by Cottage

It is harsh and stereotypical to characterize a separation as "leaving my wife and Child" or "not having Daddy around" as I would no longer be living with my wife which is not to say I would no longer be living with my Daughter. After reading about my affinity, love and skill as a Father why would you assume my Wife would be the one raising our Daughter?

She has been a great Mother, but for some reason she does not see that and I think that has some bearing on the situation.

I'm glad you took my advice in the helpful way it was intended

To clarify: I do not hold those views of separation, in fact I separated 3 years ago very much against my ex-husband's wishes. But that is how it often seems to the person being left and if compromise is possible, you would do well to understand where that reaction is coming from even though your perspective is different.

My ex is very much involved in my childrens' lives, but whoever they are with, they miss the other. If they spend time with both parents, there are the constant adjustments of living in different places which persist long beond the point when they have adjusted to the separation. They wake and can't remember which house they are in etc.

My kids are exceptionally well balanced and happy, far more so than they would have been had I remained married. Now, both their parents are happy and healthy, which we certainly wouldn't have been if we remained together. But there are costs, as I'm sure you appreciate.

I agree that her perception of herself as a mother is likely to have a significant effect on her current attitude.

Talking it out helps enormously. Short of taking action which will irrevocably affect loved ones, it helps to test out how you feel and what compromises you can and can't make whilst remaining true to yourself. It would be good if you were able to continue this dialogue with her too, as that may help address some of the communication issues you talked of. Good luck