Who thinks Muslims are being set up?

[matthewmurcia]

I think in this big globalised super war on terror and axes of evil, someone is setting muslims up as a scapegoat for everything. Most muslims don't hate anybody as much as most christians or jews don't and I'll tell you a little story about the bombings here in Madrid last year and the explanations given by a socialist arab expert in Murcia a few months later.

She talked for about half an hour and basically explained the follwoing:

1- that socioeconomic reasons (unemployment, immigration, residence papers, culture differences) were to blame than just being muslim;
2 - that we should also look at the historical perspective of colonialist intervention, especially in N Africa and the Middle East.

Now, normally I consider myself to be more liberal and open minded (as the speaker purported to be) but as I left the conference I was left feeling myself to be more in agreement with the right wingers who had shouted her down than what she had said. This is why:

1- if the problem is really no jobs, bad housing, no reception process or integration effort being made then the problem is 1000 times bigger than anyone is imaging. I am an immigrant in Spain and I have not met one single immigrant, from whichever country, that has not had somekind of socioeconomic problem with the administration, a dodgy landlord or a boss who wants to mistreat you just because you're immigrant.
2 - there are other people in the world who have bigger axes to grind with western interventionism than N Africa and the Middle East. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, black Africa (especially with Britain, France, Belgium and Holland) and the sacking of Latin America by the Spaniards in the 16th century.

However, in NYC, Madrid, Bali and Casablanca, not one of the perpetrators was a cuban complaning that the immigration service hadn't processed his papers quick enouhg, not one Japanese citizen full of hatred for Nagasaki, one Zimbabwean complaing about 19th century colonial exploits with his great grandad's wife and sisters, nor one peruvian with a bitch about Spanish gold stealing from the Incas.

All of them were muslim, most of them were educated and all of them were angry. Someone, somewhere is not telling us something. And now it's happening in the UK after the London bombings.

[Duke]

I know very little about this subject. Is there any chance you can provide some links to credible sources on the topic?

[Vautrin]

I can tell you about the Dutch Immigration service. The only person really elligble to apply would be Mr. George W. Bush. Almost all of the other applicants will be (eventually) rejected. Traumatized by war or not.

Incidentally, due to mistakes in the procedure it seems, someone may be initially accepted as a refugee by the Dutch government. Then begins a period you could practically describe as an open prison. You are not entitled to any form of social welfare. Health-care is surprisingly enough still allowed for these people. They are barely allowed to work (just enough so that they can't build up any legal rights, great!).

The real kicker is, that you are almost per definition not a refugee. You have to bring documentation with you, otherwise they won't believe you. But if you bring documentation with you, you could not have been in a really dangerous situation, now could you?

After you have survived all that, and not gone mentally sick, you are still often kicked out of the country for dubious reasons. Are you gay? We have no problem deporting you to Lybia, where gays will be prosecuted in the most terrible way for that. Human rights activist in Turkey? Send him / her back. Torture is not our problem. Opposition from Iran? Yes, we know occasionally Iranians disappear and later found dead. Iranians whom we promised safety in Iran. But lack of basic safety for the refugee is not a concern for our government. Sometimes we even send refugees back to a different country to "dispose" of the problem.

For the unlucky few, that receive a permanent status (it seems actually to depend on skill in sport most notably football (soccer for the Americans)), they are subsequently blamed for not integrating. For not completely forsaking their identity to become beer-gulping idiots.
Integration is something which the government had made practically illegal for the duration of the whole procedure, which lasts in general for years, if the result is acceptance.

Needless to say, I am disgusted by the whole "tolerance" bull**** the government is trying to sell to us. Probably we have the lowest number of refugee applications (per head of the population) in the world.

Even if you marry to someone of a foreign nationality it can literally take years for that person to be allowed entry to the Netherlands. Years! And it depends quite a bit on socio-economic status. If I were ever to marry a woman of foreign nationality (that may happen, as you know), you can imagine that I am not interested in these gruesome procedures it would take. I'd rather relocate to hers.

Also it is quite a common practice that people with Arab sounding names are rejected, but if they apply under Dutch names with the same voice and Curriculum vitae, they get accepted. Of course this illegal, but the government does not do one iota about it.

We are legally allowed to call Muslims "goatf*ckers" but beware if we say something similar about Christians. Then it is suddenly offensive. Christians are allowed to say that a homosexual is worse than a thief, but if a Muslim says the same thing, he has not integrated "enough", and of course should be punished for that same statement.

We must not forget there is a large (often legal!) difference between Western immigrants and non-Western immigrants. If someone from the US or the UK would immigrate to the Netherlands he would have more rights than if a Turk or an Egyptian would do the same. I am not familiar with the Law to its fullest, but the things I do know are quite shocking about nationalities.

You do have Christian fundamentalists. They bomb abortion clinics in the US, kill the doctors who do these procedures. And they are winning, as the doctors and clinics definitely feel the pressure. They were involved in the situation in Lebanon in 1982. They are active in Indonesia. To name but a few.
Just as there are Muslim fundamentalists, Buddhist and Hindu fundamentalists, what not. There are reasons, both psychological as societal, why some people cling desperately to their faith, and find justification in their faith to perpetrate whatever the wish to do. Slavery was once justified by the Bible, or so people thought.

[Adonaicole]

They did a study on happiness and found that one of the keys to being happy was the awareness that you are responsible for your own happiness. Those who blame others for their own unhappiness are miserable because they feel powerless to achieve happiness because they can't change the behaviour of others. I don't specifically blame the muslim religion, there are good muslims, just like there are good people in any religion. The ones I blame are those cowards who incite others to violence. I call them cowards because they don't strap bombs on their own bodies but recruit little children for that.

[Merika]

A fundamentalist, assuming they are the voice for any particular religion, is much like a horse with blinders on. Their view is so limited that they no longer see the world beyond their own distorted version of it.

Matthewmurcia.... I don't know if terrorists are 'set up'. I think they will cause their own demise and even be cast away from the very people they think they represent. This happened in the USA among the churches who really took an active stand against those who broke the law in the name of God. They are openly chastised and not embraced in any way. I think the Moslem community around the world is doing the same thing to those who have become an embarrassment to their otherwise peaceful religious beliefs.

I don't think poverty is the basis for terrorism. Hell, there is poverty all over the world. However, if we go in there and help the people set up a democratic government and some sort of normal life..... I think it will help the young men find a new focus..beyond hate and despair.

Also, another thing which happens is that war also produces love. Anywhere you get soldiers and local people.... there are marriages and a mingling of societies in a new way. I live in a military area where just about every place in the world is represented because at some point a sailor fell in love and brought a girl, and sometimes her whole family, back to the states.

As kids go to school together and wives become friends....the world becomes smaller. We begin to accept and understand various cultures. This is why the UK is so multicultural.

So... good can come from bad. Sometimes, we just have to follow the path and believe the best.

[sweetbilly]

Personally, I feel the proof is in the pudding. Right now in the Middle East all we see are American troops bringing food, medical aid and peace of mind to hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians who, under their beloved Muslim leader Saddam Hussein, were tortured, murdered and oppressed for more than 30 years. The rest of the world sat by and did nothing at all to help them free themselves. The gratitude we get for this: car bombings, murders of American troops on a daily basis and threats to kill all Americans in the name of their religion. In fact, just to prove my point, we are still referred to as the Crusaders this alone should prove good or bad intentions. I tend to believe in actions far more than I do words. And I see no actions of good faith, by any country, throughout the Middle East. In fact, all I ever see are American flag burnings and threats against Westerners.

By the way, the gross national income of Iraq matched or just exceeded the gross national income of the United States just a few years ago; due to petroleum sales around the globe. Of course this was before the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein. And all of that money went to a country the size of the State of California which was ruled by a tyrannical madman seeking the world's most deadly weapons; for who knows what! That's just the money collected by one Arabic country! Imagine what the total money made on oil profits throughout the Middle East is, and then imagine the extent of damage that could be done if most of these countries with their great wealth, murderous fundamentalist beliefs, and desire to procure these weapons could do if get their hands on them! OMG, and you want us to standby into nothing at all?

Oh, and of course we don't get to hear how the money collected by the United Nations, for dues, which is supposed to be used for food, clothing, shelter, medicine etc... is misappropriated and instead misused for the training of Palestinian terrorists against their Israeli neighbors. Instead of using that money to build houses, schools or buy clothing and food they are using it for militaristic training and weapons purchases so they can kill people just a few miles away whom they associate with Western powers. Personally, I like to hear an answer as to why they feel they have to kill Israelis on a daily basis? Not to mention, why is it that only Western powers, if these people are so oppressed, are the only ones providing this money? There are negligible funds being provided to Palestinians by other Arabic countries, such as Iran, Iraq, Sudan or Saudi Arabia for food, clothing, shelter etc..... These countries like to use the, so-called, Palestinian cause to further their own agenda; however, I don't see them providing aid in any way to these so-called Western oppressed refugees. I would like to know why they keep their borders closed if these people are in such dire straits and why these other countries, if they're so interested in the Palestinian people's welfare, don't simply allow them to work and live in their countries? Once again, I think the proof is in the pudding.

So I don't buy into the concept that these people are oppressed and framed by Western powers, they simply aren't. If they are oppressed, its by their own people for their twisted beliefs; Maybe to kill the Great Satan as Americans often refered to as. If you ask my opinion, the Muslim powers-that-be are intentionally oppressing and misleading, through propaganda, their own people in the hope that they will act exactly as they have done so the world will feel sympathetic toward their cause, so they can justify their war against the so-called Crusaders and so that they continue their personal vendetta against Westerners (while deceitfully redirecting the cause and effect relationship so they can keep their power in their own country). And just to prove my point, look at the popularity of Bin Laden. Who do you think would gain power in these countries once the powers that currently are aren't anymore? It is also my feelings that all of this is being done just so that fundamentalists can wage their own personal Jihad against westerners and gain total power. So yes, I guess I do believe there is a conspiracy, however, it's not being perpetrated by Americans.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by sweetbilly

Personally, I feel the proof is in the pudding. Right now in the Middle East all we see are American troops bringing food, medical aid and peace of mind to hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians who, under their beloved Muslim leader Saddam Hussein, were tortured, murdered and oppressed for more than 30 years.

And how did Saddam rise to power? Was the CIA a Russian institution? I think not. Was Saddam not beloved by a certain Mr. Reagan for standing up against evil Iran, in the Gulf War of the eighties? So why did the US not mind to support an evil leader at that time?

The rest of the world sat by and did nothing at all to help them free themselves.

It is even worse. After the Kuwait war, the Americans promised a lot of minorities in Iraq support if they rose against Mr. Saddam. Support that never came. And because the support never came, Mr. Saddam was given the perfect opportunity to strike down the rebellion. If you want to blame Saddam for that, you must also look at the behavior of the coalition at the time. It was a bit less heroic on the end, than we often imagine.

The gratitude we get for this: car bombings, murders of American troops on a daily basis and threats to kill all Americans in the name of their religion.

And you have never met an American who threatens that the US should kill all unbelievers?

In fact, just to prove my point, we are still referred to as the Crusaders this alone should prove good or bad intentions. I tend to believe in actions far more than I do words. And I see no actions of good faith, by any country, throughout the Middle East. In fact, all I ever see are American flag burnings and threats against Westerners.

Funny thing is, many of the people in the Middle East have the same issue. Does that prove that they are right and the US is wrong? No. It only suggests that the two regions are not too enthusiastic about each other.

By the way, the gross national income of Iraq matched or just exceeded the gross national income of the United States just a few years ago; due to petroleum sales around the globe. Of course this was before the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein. And all of that money went to a country the size of the State of California which was ruled by a tyrannical madman seeking the world's most deadly weapons; for who knows what!

A tyrannical madman, that had the support of the US for most of his rule, certainly up to the Kuwait war. And as you can imagine the wealth of the nation was not as equally divided in Iraq (or Saudi-Arabia for instance) as it is in the US. And even in the US it is far from equally divided.

That's just the money collected by one Arabic country! Imagine what the total money made on oil profits throughout the Middle East is, and then imagine the extent of damage that could be done if most of these countries with their great wealth, murderous fundamentalist beliefs, and desire to procure these weapons could do if get their hands on them! OMG, and you want us to standby into nothing at all?

Ever heard of Exxon, of Shell, of BP et cetera. These are Western companies, who make the real profit. If 159 litres cost on average $22 or thereabout that means only $0.15 per litre of oil. That includes production costs, profit by the company. What these countries earn by oil sales is a lot less than we imagine it to be.

Oh, and of course we don't get to hear how the money collected by the United Nations, for dues, which is supposed to be used for food, clothing, shelter, medicine etc... is misappropriated and instead misused for the training of Palestinian terrorists against their Israeli neighbors.

They could not even get pencils. Because the carbon might be used to coat plains and such. So what could they get for their money then? It is hard to write with cardboard. If that does not have a military use.

The Palestinian State did not exist at the time. So the "neighbors" you refer to were actually occupation forces. That sounds a lot less friendly, now does it not? Because it is. And Israel gets a sponsorship of $3 billion a year from the US alone. Money which was partly used to continue the occupation. I.e. sponsoring terrorist activities.

Instead of using that money to build houses, schools or buy clothing and food they are using it for militaristic training and weapons purchases so they can kill people just a few miles away whom they associate with Western powers.

They could not even get pencils. What good can a school do, if teachers are not even allowed to actually teach the pupils?

Personally, I like to hear an answer as to why they feel they have to kill Israelis on a daily basis?

Um, and these people want answers, on the question why they have been kicked out of there country 57 years ago, and still are left without any compensation. I imagine the people of Utah going all to be in a hippy mood if the US President would sell the State to Canada, and Canada would kick everyone, without the slightest compensation ...

Not to mention, why is it that only Western powers, if these people are so oppressed, are the only ones providing this money? There are negligible funds being provided to Palestinians by other Arabic countries, such as Iran, Iraq, Sudan or Saudi Arabia for food, clothing, shelter etc.....

Try collecting $10,000 a person a year, if that person makes the equivalent of $3 a day.

I would like to know why they keep their borders closed if these people are in such dire straits and why these other countries, if they're so interested in the Palestinian people's welfare, don't simply allow them to work and live in their countries?

One of the problems is that the Palestinians are being used by some dictators as pawns in a game. And nothing more. And quite a few of these "Presidents" (as we are supposed to call, say Mubarrak) use the cause of the Palestinians to lessen discontent in their own country, to take an "anti-American" stance. While conveniently forgetting that the rule of said President depends on Western support.

So I don't buy into the concept that these people are oppressed and framed by Western powers, they simply aren't. If they are oppressed, its by their own people for their twisted beliefs;

Oppression is not simply an idea. It is based in reality. And ideas are a reflection of the experience of reality. If Israel can legally kill, and ignore all kinds of conventions (whether or not they signed it is irrelevant), why should people who are opposed to Israel (who cannot even be bound to such treaties, as their State does simply not exist) be bound to the same treaties? It does not make sense. And the same is true for the US.

If you ask my opinion, the Muslim powers-that-be are intentionally oppressing and misleading, through propaganda, their own people in the hope that they will act exactly as they have done so the world will feel sympathetic toward their cause, so they can justify their war against the so-called Crusaders and so that they continue their personal vendetta against Westerners (while deceitfully redirecting the cause and effect relationship so they can keep their power in their own country).

Absolutely true. The only problem with the theory is that the whole "proof" Blair and Bush have presented to the world, has been proven to be total propaganda itself. It is not a comforting thought, I admit to that.

And just to prove my point, look at the popularity of Bin Laden. Who do you think would gain power in these countries once the powers that currently are aren't anymore?

You mean, if the US would withdraw support in Saudi-Arabia, and Egypt? Who knows. It might be dictator. It might be Muslim fundamentalists (very strange that the US barely takes issues with that in Saudi-Arabia, is not it?)

It is also my feelings that all of this is being done just so that fundamentalists can wage their own personal Jihad against westerners and gain total power. So yes, I guess I do believe there is a conspiracy, however, it's not being perpetrated by Americans.

There are a lot of conspiracies. Some cancelling each other out. Some perpetrated by States. And some by ideological groups. When and where it all ends? I would not know. But I am not optimistic that things are improving.

[matthewmurcia]

Well done, Vautrin, you beat me too it by a couple of hours I'll just pick up on one point if i might:

American troops bringing food, medical aid and peace of mind to hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians

Hmmmm....and what about

Abu Ghraib;
Gore for porn (gore pictures of dead iraquis for free internet porn access);
Guantanamo bay (including the flushing of the Koran down the toilet incident);
The sacking of Falluja;

and this month's latest "American troops treat their enemies well stories":

Burning of two afghanistani's corpses, hung facing east and unburied by special 'psyops' exoerts;
8 undisclosed torture detention centres in foreign countries, uncovered by your very own washington post.

And these are just the big juicy stories that corporate media gets excited about.

[Vautrin]

Hi Matthew. Great to see you again!

[matthewmurcia]

Thanks Vautrin, nice to be back. I've been a little busy lately but a couple of replies lately have been too argumentative not to pick up on

[Stone]

My b/f was a Mariene Infantry sargent for 14 years, I have tons and tons of pics of dead iraquis in a cabniet in my house from the 1st Gulf war as I am sure many other military men do. It is not a "bragging" right it is a reflection on a very sad, tramatic time in his life. It represents war and the outcome.

According to Greg when he was there, you can't even trust the 5 year old that approaches an american for candy, a hug ect. because they may have a bomb. The american troops treat there enimies well stories is just meida crap.While I am sure it happened where are the stories about what great things we have done for there country? You don't get them because it doesn't sell.

[matthewmurcia]

I used to be a soldier too, Stone. Infantry Lt.

Did your bf exchange his photos for free porn? I doubt it. But some others did. I don't disagree with the photos themselves, in fact I think we should see more of them and less shiny news stories from the media. The problem is the way they were used in that case.

I think if we saw more photos of what war is really like, then there wouldn't be as many of them.

And if they weren't in Iraq, they wouldn't get killed and the iraqi children would see no reason to blow themselves up to kill anybody.