Armageddon

[Ayla]

I work with an older lady and she is convinced we are living in end times. She says that everything that is happing in the middle east is just leading up to the THE Armageddon as the Middle East is where it's supposed to take place.

I see her point but my Mamaw has been saying we're living in end times since I was little.

I'm sure people thought the same thing when Hitler was invading Europe. I just have a hard time buying that THIS IS IT.

What do you guys think?

http://www.countdown.org/armageddon/index.htm

[Vautrin]

Interestingly enough, prophecies like that have been from all ages. Around 1 AD, a lot of people in Judea thought similar things, and that spread through the Roman empire. Probably there even exists a tie between early Christianity and prophecies like that, although the two are not cause and effect of one another.

Same with the Middle Ages. At times, there were a lot of religious movements and people who believed that the end times were near, or believed they lived in the end times.

[Merika]

Well Ayla...there is only one truth as to how close to the end we are. Each day is closer than the one behind you. That's all I know............

There has always been an earth cycle of calamities....the Bible only states that as the end gets nearer....these calamities (earthquakes, storms, famine, wars and rumors of wars) will get closer together as the birth pains of a woman. There IS an actual time line given for the duration of man....but that gets real complicated for some people due to all the variables.

God did say 'the actual day' no man will know....but we can follow the hints and guidelines for an estimation of time frame.

I don't think it should make a difference regardless. We should live each day as though it were our last.....and each day as though it were our first. Just like God....we shouldn't change due to the situations around us.

[hezekiah]

Regardless of the question of whether the end times are upon us-life is finite-if my individual end is at hand it doesnt matter how long it'll be till the rest follow.
That may sound selfish,but I'm not being bitter,I wont embrace death-I've had to struggle against it before-but
what this world has to offer is of negligible value...
God is compassionate,life could be a tortuous routine for everyone all the time-it's not-and in the worst of life's horrors you can see His grace... so going home won't be bad at all...

[sweetbilly]

God is compassionate,life could be a tortuous routine for everyone all the time-it's not-and in the worst of life's horrors you can see His grace... so going home won't be bad at all...

Oh how true!!

As for the end times, i totally agree that we are finally there, i'm just waiting for the end now! It's amazing how many times Iraq is mentioned in the bible in the end times, and look where we are right now, IRAQ!! The bible says all the nations will gather in the valley of euphrates for, not the FINAL battle, but a major battle just before the final battle of Revelations which will take place at Meddego in northern Israel. Armageddon means "Arms at Meddego" I feel there is a phrophecy in the bible about George Bush being the president which leads us into this war in Iraq. The Twin Towers in New York and what happened on Sept 11 is in the bible! But the bible say's that this is a conspiracy between several nations, including Russia, Iran etc.. to destroy the west. Here are some of the most amazing things about sept 11.

http://www.september11news.com/Mysteries1.htm

http://www.september11news.com/Mysteries2.htm

Alot of people believe these are just coincidental, however, i do NOT. On Sept 11 at 10:00 am Colon Powell was supposed to address the United Nations in New York and confirm to the U.N. the United States approval of a Palestainian state to end the violence in Israel. The ol' peace for land deal that God absolutely condimned in the bible. At 9:00am that meeting was cancelled and we all know why. The bible is very explicited about what would happen to any nation that tried to take Israeli land away from Israel, in any sort of land for peace deal, they would meet with utter disaster and God would not be there to protect them from Satan or their enemies anymore. I'm not saying you have to agree with that statement just that many people believe that we are now living out that statement. I don't expect anyone who questions the validity of the bible would actually see these things, they just haven't opened their mind enough yet to believe that this could actually be happening. Sept 11 was the turning point for the world, our time will be up soon. The bad thing is this, by the time all of this will have been proven to those who don't believe it will be too late it will all be over and everyones fate will be decided. I look at mans knowledge of the bible as sort of like mans knoweledge about atoms, electrons and neutrons in the 1800's, if it couldn't be seen it couldn't possibly be real, at least until they made the atom bomb.

[Merika]

I agree Billy. If we make it another decade I would be surprised.

[Weiser]

Well if what you are saying is true, then I should try and take out a multi million dollar business loan, take all the money, and move to puerto rico til the world blows up. Sounds like a great plan. Anyone want to come?

[darkangelism]

the end of the world has been predicted manyy times, and how many times have they been right? The world has taken the tsunami, katrina and the wars and has kept on going like nothing happened, we can survive anything.

[sweetbilly]

Your right DA, it has been predicted many times. That's prolly the reason why most people reject God today. However, don't allow a few bad apples to hurt you in a way that can't be fixed and is utterly permanant, you were created to last for eternity, whether that eternity is spent in heaven or in hell is up to you and you alone don't allow someone else to take something from you they don't have the right to take. Most of those people were saying the things they were saying for their own personal reasons, fame etc... in my own opinion those people are a detriment to the church and to God and should be kicked out of the church but that's not my decision to make. This is personal between you and God, and that's the way God looks at it too. Ignoring it/him can only be bad for you in the end.

ALOT of Christians are talking about this now, they see things happening today which is believed to match ancient prophecies on a level not ever seen before in history, and i have to agree. Jesus said to be ready when he came back, i don't believe i'll have the time to repent when what ever is going to happen happens, so i'm going to be ready regardless. I have suffered enough in my life and i have no intentions of suffering one day longer than i have to. I was also an athiest at one time, however God has a way of getting your attention when he knows the time is right, Usually it's when things go bad for you, he got my attention a few years ago. Now no matter whatever happens in this world for the rest of my life i'll NEVER doubt that the things i experienced were real and completly validated Gods existance to me. The same thing can happen to anyone who wants it to happen or just wants to know the truth, but it won't happen when you are not willing to allow it to happen or are not openminded enough to accept it.

[darkangelism]

If it is th eend, i have a hard time believing that many would survive, too much hate and sin. i mean even within each religion there are groups that hate each other.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by darkangelism

the end of the world has been predicted manyy times, and how many times have they been right?

Exactly zero times. It was a very common occurence in the Roman empire, in the time of the first Emperors. Including a corner of the empire then known as Judea.

The end of the world has been predicted and proclaimed during large parts of the First World War. 1917, and the revolutions in Russia, and later in Finland, Germany, Hungary, to name but a few European countries were often seen as signs for that too.

At times it has been more common than others. It was quite common in the time of the French and American Revolution too. It was common around the end of the Middle Ages, when Reformation was about to hit Europe.

All these were times when a lot of people felt the end of times was near. It is even easier to find instances where a few people feel that way, and acted upon those beliefs.



If I would take the text of Revelations, I could predict the end of time, in practically every point in historical time. 1945? Atomic bomb. 1961? The first environmental reports that suggested that we are messing up this planet. 1300s? The plague. 1150? The Crossbow (declared to be a diabolical machine by a pope at the time). 400? The Mongol Hordes. You can always identify something as being a disaster, some government to be unjust.
And moral decay has been as old as civilization itself, so it is not hard to spot that either. In the 1920s a lot of people considered the use of lipstick as a sign of moral decay.

Any scholar on theology, with a bit of investigative skills could do the same. That in itself proves nothing, but does not prove either that something "big" is going to happen either. You simply can read almost anything in some parts of scripture.

There are so many versions of Christianity condemning all non-believers (of that particular version) to eternal damnation, because of scripture, that any Christian who is trying to make an argument on the basis of scripture has to overcome a lot of issues related to that.

Every religion carries its past with it. Christianity in a lot of versions has provided justifications for slavery. Christianity in a lot of versions has provided justifications for wars, for the oppression of women (and still does in parts of the Netherlands).

Christianity, or more specific Roman Catholic in this example also has its other side, often neglected by believers as well: in the Middle Ages attempts have been made to define a fair price for agricultural products, tools, labour et cetera. Futile in retrospect, but still.

Mystic tendencies as well, and of course apocalyptic visionaries. It was not unheard of for someone being of high rank in the Catholic church and a mystic at the same time.

You can't simply say that someone is interpreting scripture rightly or wrongly. You have to prove why it is right, or why it is wrong.
Christians cannot even agree on that, so unless someone defines Christian, as one specific version of Christianity, anyone will be hard pressed to come up with conclusive proof for whatever position based on scripture.

Other than a few of the Ten Commandments (!) there would not be much agreement. It depends on how you interpret "killing" "honoring your Lord", or "Loving your Neighbor." The first could result in a religious conviction to refuse to kill, even if it is for one's country.

This holds for all religious doctrines.



Arguments relating to the fact how many people believe in a proposition does not tell us anything about the truth value of said proposition.

[sweetbilly]

Exactly zero times

Absolutly right Vautrin, however i will quote myself from an earlier post on this one

what would make a religion any different than a cult?


I think i have a pretty good answer for this one: a cult is based mostly in unsubstantiated, non-provable evidence. Some religions, for the most part, like to believe they have been based on provable historical, scientific evidence that can be corroborated. I feel most religions in the world are mostly just cults in disguise, there are very few in the world that would stand up to any real scientific/historical scrutiny. However, there are some that could and do stand up under that type of scrutiny.

Like i said there have been many people to claim the end of the world is just right around the corner, they have done this for their own reasons and as far as i'm concerned they do no service to their faith or to God and i'm sure they will have to pay a price for the souls God lost because they acted on their own behalf. God said NO man would know either the day or the hour of christs return but he did say you would know the signs and the age in which he would return. That is what i am discussing here. If you are looking for a date and an hour ...forget it cause it will never happen, NO ONE can tell you that!! So once again the bible was right.

I think it self evident the world is already in an utter state of moral decay today, i don't think anyone would disagree with that. So i don't think i get your point. However, once again the bible was right concerning this issue as well.

You simply can read almost anything in some parts of scripture.

You can't read it at all if you have misinterpreted previous parts of the bible simply because that book is totally dependant on every word in it. And some people simply just don't want to read it the way it was meant to be read, this is a pride issue not an interpretation issue.

There are so many versions of Christianity condemning all non-believers (of that particular version) to eternal damnation, because of scripture, that any Christian who is trying to make an argument on the basis of scripture has to overcome a lot of issues related to that.

Your right there are many versions of my faith, but none of them are my faith. And as far as i'm concerned if they do not read the bible correctly they are a cult. Being in a cult is technically worshiping another God, and we all know worshiping another God is condimned in the bible. However, their beliefs aren't confirmed by fullfilment's of ancient prophices, mine have been!! That is the difference in this case. As for issues i do not know what you are talking about, elaborate on something specific please?

Every religion carries its past with it. Christianity in a lot of versions has provided justifications for slavery. Christianity in a lot of versions has provided justifications for wars, for the oppression of women (and still does in parts of the Netherlands).

I can't say i agree with either of those, but i will tell you that God himself commanded the slavery in this country to happen all the way back in Genesis. When Canan did something after the flood to bring sin back into the world.

18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.

20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."

26 He also said,
"Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

27 May God extend the territory of Japheth;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be his slave."

I don't approve of slavery but if God wants those people to go into slavery for crucifying his son after their ancestor brought sin back into the world i'm not going to argue with him. You know that the people being spoke of in this prophecy are also the decendants of the jews that allowed christ to be crucified don't you? I don't know anything about the Netherlands, but i'm sure they do not represent my faith as i do not believe in slavery or oppression of any human being. However, i'm not going to interfere either if God commands that someone should go into slavery for punishment for killing his son and bringing sin back into the earth. Isn't it funny how if you don't read every word of the bible it dosen't make much sence?

Christianity, or more specific Roman Catholic

I am not a Roman Catholic, and i would just like to state that i reject their religon almost totally, the only thing we would agree on is that Jesus is the son of God. I reguard the Roman Catholics as a cult. Sorry if that offends anyone it's just the way i see it.

You can't simply say that someone is interpreting scripture rightly or wrongly

This would probably be our biggest point of contention, i don't agree at all with that statement. I know alot of people claim their version is the correctly interpreted version however once again they don't have the gift of prophecy, and my faith does! However, no matter how many times i prove it if you don't want to see it you won't believe it anyway.

Other than a few of the Ten Commandments (!) there would not be much agreement. It depends on how you interpret "killing" "honoring your Lord", or "Loving your Neighbor." The first could result in a religious conviction to refuse to kill, even if it is for one's country.

I recall several times in the bible where God himself commanded his children to kill the inhabitants of a city for what ever reason, and several times where he killed them himself. If you did not kill them wouldn't it be considered NOT honoring your lord? If you did kill them wouldn't it be considered murder? So could it actually be that killing in particular situations is ok? I would venture to say yes it's just in certain cases. If you think that doing Gods will is just simply not kiling anyone you are wrong. Like God said "there is a time to love and there is a time to kill, there is a time for everything under heaven" That's not just a 1960's song, there can at times be extenuating circumstances which allows you to kill someone. If that weren't true then i guess God himself is a murderer. Seeing that God is perfect and never changing i don't suppose he murdered anyone.

This holds for all religious doctrines.

Your right, it holds true for ALL religous doctrines, good thing i'm NOT religous. I'm faithful.

Arguments relating to the fact how many people believe in a proposition does not tell us anything about the truth value of said proposition.

Right again, however this time if the interpertation is correct it makes it a fact and not a proposition dosen't it? If we all made it to haven by democratic rule i guess hell would be a lonely place wouldn't it? Too bad God says that's not going to happen.

If you believe in any God, whether you call him Alah, Jesus or whatever, only half of the people of this earth are even going to make it to any type of heaven and that is agreed upon by all sides involved. The other half are going to suffer very badly no matter who they are or what they believe, and if you are an athiest your screwed either way. My proof with be in the pudding, so to speak. If you wnat to wait that long to find out the truth that's your own perogative.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by sweetbilly

Like i said there have been many people to claim the end of the world is just right around the corner, they have done this for their own reasons and as far as i'm concerned they do no service to their faith or to God and i'm sure they will have to pay a price for the souls God lost because they acted on their own behalf.

Umm, and what are people doing now, when they claim the end of the world is around the corner? What are people doing now, when they are telling what God thinks? Which is blasphemy in my book.

God said NO man would know either the day or the hour of christs return but he did say you would know the signs and the age in which he would return. That is what i am discussing here. If you are looking for a date and an hour ...forget it cause it will never happen, NO ONE can tell you that!!

Can you predict with any certainty what a particular part of an atom is doing at any point in time? Nope. It has nothing to do with whatever is in the bible. It is in the nature of things. I have the advantage I can explain that philosophically, thus without the requirement of interpreting it correctly (which is sheer impossibility).

So once again the bible was right.

Nah. You did not make a claim. And if it was the statement that noone can know with certainty, that claim belongs to Socrates, in Greek culture. A man who even refused to write a single thought down, for fear of misinterpretation. A problem Christianity, and other religions still contend with.

I think it self evident the world is already in an utter state of moral decay today, i don't think anyone would disagree with that.

It is not self evident. The complaint has been as old as civilization itself. It does not prove a thing, it only points to certain prejudices someone who believes that holds.
Somehow, at least in some countries there has been progress. Slavery has been abolished in a lot of countries. Same with executions, and death penalty. A christian could easily make the argument that it is not for us to judge.
Religious freedom does exist in a large number of countries. Some countries have a form of social security (strange enough considered by lots of christians as wrong, unchristian, etc), which protects the weak and the poor.

So i don't think i get your point. However, once again the bible was right concerning this issue as well.

?
"I think it is self evident" = "Bible is right?" Please come up with an attempt to prove something, instead of "thinking", "guessing" and what not.

You can't read it at all if you have misinterpreted previous parts of the bible simply because that book is totally dependant on every word in it.

No. And what is misinterpretation? Most christians in the world hold that you misinterpretted the bible itself. So who is correct? More importantly, what is correct?

And some people simply just don't want to read it the way it was meant to be read, this is a pride issue not an interpretation issue.

Could apply to you too. Attacking others in this way, does not exclude the possibility that it includes your faith too.

]And as far as i'm concerned if they do not read the bible correctly they are a cult. Being in a cult is technically worshiping another God, and we all know worshiping another God is condimned in the bible. However, their beliefs aren't confirmed by fullfilment's of ancient prophices, mine have been!! That is the difference in this case.

So we get a personal definition of what is true and what is false? That is nothing less than cultic. And many christians believe, nay "know" that you are someone who interprets scripture incorrectly. Which only adds to your argument that your beliefs are effectively cultic.

I can't say i agree with either of those, but i will tell you that God himself commanded the slavery in this country to happen all the way back in Genesis. When Canan did something after the flood to bring sin back into the world.

Is this allowing for a reintroduction of slavery, just because the Bible allows for it? It is in flagrant contradiction with some of the Ten Commandments, nonetheless. The last time I checked slavery did still exist well in the 1800's in the Western world...
If Christians could not even agree upon the obvious point, that it was against the Ten Commandments to hold a fellow man in bonds, and thus against God, can you imagine the sheer impossibility to agree upon something less obvious than that?

You know that the people being spoke of in this prophecy are also the decendants of the jews that allowed christ to be crucified don't you?

And the point is? Are you blaming jews for anti-semitism?

I don't know anything about the Netherlands, but i'm sure they do not represent my faith as i do not believe in slavery or oppression of any human being.

Most christians would disagree with you on that score. Never mind the atheists.

However, i'm not going to interfere either if God commands that someone should go into slavery for punishment for killing his son and bringing sin back into the earth. Isn't it funny how if you don't read every word of the bible it dosen't make much sence?

It does not make sense.You allow for God to act contradictory to the unions He himself has made with Man. Which is unchristian in my book, and in the book of most Christians. Or do these unions have no meaning at all? In its most consequent interpretation, the Ten Commandments would be rendered meaningless as a result of that.

I am not a Roman Catholic, and i would just like to state that i reject their religon almost totally, the only thing we would agree on is that Jesus is the son of God.

And the tri-unity? The Mary cult?

This would probably be our biggest point of contention, i don't agree at all with that statement. I know alot of people claim their version is the correctly interpreted version however once again they don't have the gift of prophecy, and my faith does!

Which is perhaps a delusion. It may well be a false statement, to make up for the lack of proof in your faith too. All faiths/religions do that, to be honest, so your faith is not original in that department. Prove your faith has the gift of prophecy.

However, no matter how many times i prove it if you don't want to see it you won't believe it anyway.

Which is also classically borrowed from other faiths/religions of the past.

I recall several times in the bible where God himself commanded his children to kill the inhabitants of a city for what ever reason, and several times where he killed them himself. If you did not kill them wouldn't it be considered NOT honoring your lord?

Most of that was before the receival of the Ten Commandments. And after the Ten Commandments, you could just as easily argue that the killing of a man is against the Lord