The London attack

Luba · 07-07-2005, 08:14 PM

OMG, the London attack...just watched the News! They also said that Canada was on the Terrorist hit list! What is happening?....

Merika · 07-07-2005, 09:29 PM

Everyone is on the hit list of those retarded SOB's! They don't speak for other Muslims or Allah. They speak out of the confusion and hate of their own heart.

I'm glad Meanon and my daughter are quite a ways from London. When I first heard the news....my heart took a major leap...but then I heard from them and felt better. They had plans to go to London next weekend....but they may be canceled depending on how the situation pans out. Meanon will make the best choice.

As I was telling Meanon.,....one of the worst end results are the people who are cancelling their vacation plans. The UK and Europe both depend on this high tourist season revenue wise....just as the USA and Canada does. The airlines suffer greatly and end up having to refund money they have already used. It's a mess.

To me, the best response is not to be in fear. If you are...then they've won. Better to look it in the eye and stand strong.

Star · 07-07-2005, 09:55 PM

I haven't watched the news yet today so i don't know much about what happened in london at all but canada's on the hit list too now? that scares me. why? why? why? what's the point in all of this? Why do they have to kill people they don't know in countries that have nothing to do with them? I'll never understand this. never.

dogula · 07-08-2005, 12:30 AM

On the topic of Canada being on a hit list, it is because they are an ally of America and took part in the Afghanistan invasion. I'm pretty sure that pretty much every western country is on this 'list' for some reason or another.

America: Supports Israel, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, is rich, has people in the holy land, continue on with some laundry list of complaints. Notably, we are powerful, have a presence in the middle east, are not muslim, and we are an easy scapegoat.
Canada: listed above
France: Not muslim, had some controversy about head scarves
England: Same as America for the most part.
Germany: Took part in Afghanistan, probably some complaints involving turks and racism or something
Italy: Took part in Afghanistan and Iraq, not muslim, etc.
Spain: Same as Italy
Australia: Same as Italy

You could list some reasons for about every western country.

As far as killing people, I've never been in the position that I could rationalize murder, so I'm not sure what exactly drives them or allows them to make the rationalization.

And about England, this really is too bad and I am sad for everyone that was wounded or killed as well as everyone they knew. It does appear that London had an excellent response and will be able to cope.

And Merika: if I had a plane ticket to london on saturday I wouldn't bother cancelling it.

Vautrin · 07-08-2005, 05:39 AM

I am sorry for the many victims in the London attacks.

The frightening thing of the "War on Terror", is that it is not a classical war, in which the purpose is to defeat and occupy a nation-state. It is more complex, and military might has little importance in this.

If civilians are deemed acceptable casualties (as happens in Iraq with the term 'collateral damage'), it is not difficult to come up with a rationalistic excuse for doing the same in London, or elsewhere - especially if you feel that there is no real justice done in Afghanistan, Iraq or where-ever. Whatever your beliefs may be on justice - and that allows for widely different views in what is acceptable, and what is not acceptable.

You could maintain that the US and their allies have other purposes than instilling fear in Iraq. But you could maintain the same for the terrorists. Their ideology does not consist solely of spreading terror. Spreading terror is justified by virtue of their "belief" in some divine purpose.

Of course, that does not make terror and counter-terrorism right. As always the people who lose most in this insane situation are the people with the least choices.

Stone · 07-08-2005, 07:15 AM

OMG I forgot Isis was there, GWAD Merika that must of scared the living crap out of you.

I feel horible for the people of London. In 24 hours they had wonderful news ( olympics) then such tragedy, truley sad.

Unfortunatly there will be more attacks like this who knows where it will occur next.

Luba · 07-08-2005, 07:51 AM

Vautrin, you touched on some divine purpose for terrorism. Could you maybe explain it more to me because I just don't understand how provoking terror on innocent people (for it was the innocent working people that died in 911 and now London) is really a divine purpose?
I just want to know how terrorists "justify" this to themselves?

Vautrin · 07-08-2005, 08:15 AM

"Divine" depends of course on your interpretation of the purpose of your existence. Some find it in extremist interpretations of a religion, others in the believe that the human race is a plague on this planet. Still others find it in political goals (Rote Armee Faction, ETA).

These people are highly convinced of the righteousness of their cause. And, in all probability have tried to get what they want in other ways. Here in the West you can turn to political parties and get people who stand for your idea elected. At least that is the theory. It does not work that way in a lot of countries. Even supposedly democratic countries as Egypt and Pakistan are more dictatorships than anything else. These dictators have often the support of the same Western countries that are now threatened by terrorist attacks.

If these regimes are doing one thing well, that is to crush moderate opposition. You can be a liberal in Egypt, but if there is nothing to vote for, there is little point in that. For people who are not satisfied with how things stand, there is little point in taking a secular approach to matters - it simply does not offer any opportunity to get results.
Thus inviting more and more people, due to the ineffectiveness of the secular opposition, to more extremist resistance.

What terror is supposed to do, differs with the exact motivation of the group undertaking these attacks. In the case of the RAF the perpetrators had clearly political ideals in mind - but unlike they had anticipated, it only caused a bigger and bigger rift between the members of the RAF and the general public.

As for the fear, it is sadly not too hard to come up with rationalistic justifications - just as in a real war. If the Americans are allowed to do this or that to our own people (and this is identication with a group of people by the terrorists), then surely we are allowed to do the same to them: "If the enemy tortures in Abu Graib, or Guantanamo, why should we not be allowed the same? If the enemy kills innocent civilians, why should not we be allowed to do the same?"

Of course, American and other countries policies (what terrorists often claim to oppose) are not made by the working men and women in the street. These are targeted by the attacks. In that sense, terrorism is not effective.

If you believe (as a terrorist) that there is a God out there, who serves justice in the afterlife, the basic idea is that if you are innocent and have lived a good life, you will go to heaven. If not, you go to hell.
Depending of course on your beliefs. Some Muslims don't believe that non-believers can go to heaven. Just as some Christians believe the same. Of course, the more extremist the beliefs, the less inclusive these beliefs are in general of non-believers.

Adonaicole · 07-08-2005, 12:30 PM

If you think that the policies of any country are responsible, you are wrong. The koran teaches "death to the infidel". Unless you convert to Islam you are a prime target, regardless of where you live. If you think I'm making this up just read the speech by the new President of Iran (a known terrorist). "The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world." In other words...death to the infidel, no matter what country you live in.

Vautrin · 07-08-2005, 12:39 PM

Adonai, I disagree. You could say the same thing about the Christian Bible. It does not mean that every Christian lives in accordance with the beliefs in the bible. They are simply not given much value to by most Christians. The same is true for Muslims and the Kuran.

It is not fair to say that a theocratic state (Iran) is representative for all Muslims. It would be the same as saying that the Vatican is representative for all Christians, be they Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran or Orthodox.

Adonaicole · 07-08-2005, 01:51 PM

Have you read the bible? Have you read the Koran? I have read both cover to cover. The bible teaches to respect the alien, the Koran teaches,
""Verily We shall cause the wrong-doers to perish!"
"Verily we shall destroy the wrong-doers"
"We will destroy the unjust. "
Unbelievers are wrong-doers...

Vautrin · 07-08-2005, 01:52 PM

The same bible that prohibits women to see non-relatives during their unclean period (whatever that may be?)

(BTW my first language is not English, so I may occasionally mess up a word in translation)

dogula · 07-08-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vautrin

Of course, American and other countries policies (what terrorists often claim to oppose) are not made by the working men and women in the street. These are targeted by the attacks. In that sense, terrorism is not effective.

Bin Laden in his latest tape did kind of explain the reasoning for going after civilians. Basically he said that he was doing this because of America's policies, which are made by politicians, who are elected by American civilians, which means that the whole of America is complicit in these policies which means they are logical targets. I'm pretty sure that is how he tried to explain not going after military targets. Wouldn't suprise me if most of the extremists don't try to justify going after civilans like that since they do see it as a holy war.

Merika · 07-09-2005, 04:15 PM

I don't care what their retarded A$$ problem is. They've been attacking civilians for NO REASON for decades. It isn't about the USA and it isn't about our policies....it's about our God.

The Bible is clear that this would happen. Why it would happen. And what the end result would be.

Star · 07-09-2005, 06:04 PM

the terrorists people are all warped minded as far as i'm concerned. how retarded are they? do they honestly think they're accomplishing anything by killing innocent people in countries other then their own? they're all a few bricks short of a load as far as i'm concerned. it's all pointless and sickening.

all this killing is so sad.

Vautrin · 07-09-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star

the terrorists people are all warped minded as far as i'm concerned. how retarded are they? do they honestly think they're accomplishing anything by killing innocent people in countries other then their own? they're all a few bricks short of a load as far as i'm concerned. it's all pointless and sickening.

all this killing is so sad.

What are the coalition accomplishing by killing innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan?", is the question on the terrorists (of Islamic origin) minds.

"Nothing, but to create more anger at the Western world" is their answer. And you can't say that that is an illogical thought in itself.

Thus creating a perfect vicious circle.