Gun Control

[Merika]

I don't happen to have a gun of any sort in my home due to the age of my kids and the area where we live. It just wouldn't make much sense for me personally. However, most of my friends and family all have a variety of guns in their home....some collect, some hunt or as in my Dad's case, he keeps one handy due to bear problems in their mountain home.

I was wondering how everyone else felt about gun control.

I got this article in email over the weekend...which made me think about it.
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Claim: Statistics demonstrate that crime rates in Australia have increased substantially since the government there instituted a gun buy-back program in 1997.
Status: Multiple â€â€� see below.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2001]

See Snopes. com; http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

THE LETTER

From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

Hi Yanks,

I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!). In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns."

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.

The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note Americans, before it's too late!

[Vautrin]

Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

Yes, but this only proves the irreversibility of the gun issue at best. Nothing more. And given the fact that there are a lot of guns in the US, it is easy to get a gun even if you do happen to have a criminal record.
The only thing you can do, when you enforce guncontrol, is to simply disallow the purchase of any gun, and only in the future the real effects of these measure would show.

As for homicides, suicide plays an important part in that statistic. Were the suicides part of the statistics? Otherwise the figures would make little sense of course, given the fact that a lot of homicides are accidental shootings of family members.

The same is true with taxation. If US taxation levels were substantially higher than in Canada, it becomes very attractive for US citizens to keep their money in Canda for taxation purposes. And there is but one measure that will get the Canadian money back in the US, and that is lower taxation levels than in Canada or where-ever.

[Merika]

Good points V. Your post prompted me to look up some statistics...and this is what I found:

National Gun Violence Statistics

People

In 1999, approximately 10,096 people were murdered by guns in the United States.[1]

In 1998, over 30,000 people died from gunshots in the U.S.[2]

A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than it is to be used against an intruder.[3]

10 children are killed by guns in the U.S. every day, on average.[4]

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 211 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States.[5]
Costs

In a book published in 2000, Professors Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig estimate that the total annual cost of gun violence in the U.S. is $100,000,000,000 (One Hundred Billion dollars).[6]

The estimated cost of direct health care expenditures for firearm-related injuries in the US in 1995 was $4,000,000,000 (Four Billion dollars).[7]

The costs of treating gunshot wounds can reach over $100,000,000 (One Hundred Million dollars) at an average county hospital.[8]
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However, I think this is talking more about hand guns than rifles...which people use for sport. One of the problems here is that people aren't going to give them up because they feel it's their constiutional right to make that choice for themselves. We have a tremedous amount of people in rural areas and giving up their right to their guns isn't going to happen.

[Vautrin]

As you posted about your dad, that he has a gun to protect himself from bears, there is no real alternative to that. You can't control a bear with your bare fists, or even a knife. It would be insane for him to live without a gun, if there is a real risk.

But if you live in the middle of a big city chances of a bear appearing on the 7th store of your appartment complex are slim.

Constitutional rights are important. But the problem is of course, that the criminals who murder, commit murders et cetera, is that the people who take advantage of the constitutional right to own guns, arre not living up to the constitutional standards expected of (hu)man.
And the tragedy is of course that you can only punish the criminal after the act. When someone has lost a loved one.

[Merika]

I think most people who fight against any gun control here....ARE people who either live in rural areas or maintain a rural lifestyle (hunting or collecting) being the main issue. We also have a large military polulation who keeps guns in the home.

However, for the people who have kids in the house and chose to keep handguns....I think most of them are idiots. Kids are curious and do stupid things. If I had one...I would have to keep it so locked up and hidden...I wouldn't be able to get to it if I needed it. I do have a couple of friends who even keep handguns in their vehicles. How retarded is that? What are you going to do....shoot a slow driver????

I don't have a big appreciate for guns because it's not something which interests me...but it's a ongoing figting issue in the US. The NRA is one of our largest lobbying groups. A candidates stand on guns can make or break them in a heart beat.

[RandomSkater]

i'm not going to post any in this convo, mainly becuase i'm tired of debating this topic.

I would, however, just liek to say it's nice that someone is reporting how crime went up in australia when guns were taken away form the public.

[darkangelism]

gun control doesnt work, im very much for allowing guns.

[Vautrin]

In 1999, approximately 10,096 people were murdered by guns in the United States.[1]

In 1998, over 30,000 people died from gunshots in the U.S.[2]

A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than it is to be used against an intruder.[3]

These statistics suggest at least that the current policy does not work, as it is supposed to be DA. As to how to change the situation, that is of course a whole different matter.

I know a woman who has a pistol, and who is not afraid to use it if necessary. Why? As a safety measure. Does she like having a pistol? No! But she has little choice.

Because it is so easy to obtain a gun in the US a lot of people feel forced to obtain a gun for themselves, and thus putting themselves in danger.

Per head of the population more US citizens die from guns, than people die in traffic accidents in the Netherlands.

[Star]

Originally Posted by darkangelism

gun control doesnt work, im very much for allowing guns.

oh but DA, gun control is working here in Canada very well. We don't have nearly as many death statistics as the states do because our gun laws are much stricter. We can't go to our local wallmart and buy bullets without showing the proper paperwork that states we can own a gun. You can buy as much artillery as you want in the states at any store that sells it.

I don't know anyone that has a gun in their home for protection and I know a lot of people. The only relative that did have a gun in his home was my uncle and that was only because he was an R.C.M.P. He has now passed away so that makes nobody that I know with guns in their homes.

I would never have a gun in my home. Why would I need that? I have kitchen knives and baseball bats if I need protection. I never saw the logic in having a gun in a home. People who have guns in their homes for protection are putting themselves at greater risk of getting shot themselves I would think. JMHO.

This topic brings up somehting I'm curious about that has to do with protection in some sort. How many locks do all of you in the states have on your doors? and do you always keep your doors locked?

I have one lock on both my front and back door and that's it. During the day I don't lock my door. They get locked only before we go to bed at night. I have never had a break in, ever and I have left the house many times (especially when I lived out in the country and here a few times as well) and left my back door unlocked and didn't worry. Came back home and everything was fine.

I don't lock my doors because then I would feel like I'm locking myself in. We trust our neighbours and we look out for eachother's homes with or without a neighborhood watch program. We know who does who doesn't belong around us.

I am wondering why there is so much more violence that involve guns in the states then in Canada. We're neighbours ourselves so what are we doing different?

[darkangelism]

a large amount of gun crime is drug/gang related, also, our population is so much higher. Gun crime in the US is about twice as high(per capita) as in Canada, that is mostly due to the gun control in canada. However other crime statistics are worse in canada, such as assault, where a person is nearly twice as likly to be attacked. Also rapes per capita in Canada are more then twice as high as the US.

So in the end crime is about the same, it just takes different forms.


my source was www.nationmaster.com

[Star]

Originally Posted by darkangelism

a large amount of gun crime is drug/gang related

That is the bulk of our gun crime as well is drug/gang related. I do think however that there are more kids killing kids in the states then here in canada. We don't have metal detectors in our schools or security guards. There is no need for it at this time. None here where I live anyhow. I don't know about the big cities.

I still wonder why it is that americans are killing eachother with guns at such a high level. Now it's gotten down to the kids doing it also. I jsut don't get it.

[Stone]

Guns Will NEVER be in my home I don't care, I do however have a stun gun witch I've been wanting to use jkjkjk

My father was a hunter, we hunted wild boar all the time, he always had guns. By the time I was 14 I could shoot a rifle and a 22 witch I hit bottles and cans with. When I was 17 I was rebelous, mean and full of rage I got up in my fathers face and started being completely unapproiprate and said things that would make any man insane. He pulled a gun on me and I ran away and didn't come back for years. He denies it till this day, and actually put me in a mental institution stating I was crazy and on Acid the doctors comfirmed that something happened that day but we both let it go. My father is a good man and I don't think that he would ever hurt me, but one moment in rage could have turned out very bad. I will never live in a house with a gun again.

[Star]

Originally Posted by Stone

Guns Will NEVER be in my home I don't care, I do however have a stun gun witch I've been wanting to use jkjkjk

stun guns and pepper spray are illegal for us to posess here in Canada. My mother came to court with me one time for Krystal and she had a little bottle of pepper spray on a keychain. they took it away from her and informed her that this was illegal for her to carry. we had no idea. she had been carrying that around with her for years and years. If she would've been a lot younger, I think they would've arested her for having it. they wouldn't return it to her.

We have very strict laws where possession of weapons are concerned.

Stone, that would've terrified me too if my dad would've pulled a gun on me like that. an accidental pull of that trigger would've changed everyone's lives forever. it's very scary!

I would never have a gun in my house on anywhere near me, ever.

[darkangelism]

most of our schools have guards, but that doesnt seem to stop kid on kid crime, which i do agree is higher here. maybe the reason why the rape rate is higher in canada is due to the fact that pepper spray and stun guns are illegal.


I want a gun, i have a weapons obession and so a gun is the next level of it.

[Star]

no, I don't think that rape is higher here because of no pepper spray or stun guns. I never thought to carry those things in my life. Never had a need to I guess. I think it's because the law is too soft when it comes to crimes like assault and rape. These criminals don't seem to get a lot of time in jail for these type of crimes.

"a weapons obsession".