Gay Marriage and Homosexual Adoption

[matthewmurcia]

Ok, I just joined these forums and before things get lively, I'm very glad to be here... I thought I'd post this as my first thread seen as I haven't seen another thread about this yet.

it's a very hot family topic here in Spain right now, with huge demonstrations for and against and politicans and bishops shouting at each other. Even the Pope has has his two pennies worth (and i guess that last phrase identiifes me as English. I don't know where you're all from yet but I'd sure like to know what you think about this one. If you need me to explain anything else, just say so.

Last week, people here in Spain were either excited or angry ( or not bothered and having a beer to escape from the heat): The parliament just approved a bill allowing homosexual marriage. The Right is obviously very shocked and upset (as is the Catholic church), the socialists are exceedingly happy, as are homosexual couples all over the country. The BBC even dedicated a long report to the subject to, Spain being the 4th country I think to approve homosexual marriage.

The fact that it is being called 'marriage' seems to be the main sticking point for the anti- crowd. They think 'marriage' as a word should be reserved for heterosexual couples. There have even bee some mayors (supported by the church) who have already declared they will refuse to marry gay couples..

Adoption of children by homosexual couples is another cat amongst the pigeons, although apparently SINGLE gay people are already within their rights to adopt children..everybody's wondering what effect it might have on the children, shouting that there are no studies yet to prove the point either way (which is a supporting argument for both sides, of course). China has already refused to alolow ANYONE in Spain to adopt anymore Chinese babies because of the new law.

There was even a right wing psychologist in parliament last week arguing vehemently that homosexuality was anyway an illness...hmmmmm have to wait and see if the president of the official homosexual sub-group of the Popular Party holds true on his promise to 'out' all of the right wing top politicians for being hypocritical..that would at least give us normal (non-political) mortals a bit of fun to watch as we sit with cold beers in the heat...

[Star]

First of all, welcome to lifesupporters!! Very happy that you decided to join us!

WOW! This is a very touchy topic as the opinions on this one defers from many types of people in different religions.

I think they've passed the law here in Canada too that homosexuals can marry. I do have a bit of a problem with that myself being raised a Catholic.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals persay. How people choose to live their lives is their business not anyone else's. I have a problem with the marriage thing.

I don't want to go too deep into this issue because I don't want to offend anyone so I prefer to keep my deep opinions to myself about this topic.

[Merika]

I think the controversy will continue...much for the reasons that Star pointed out....it's a religious call. If someone follows a Bible....they can't very well throw out the baby with the bath water. They have to believe what it says...is what it means.

From personal experience, I can truly say that it's been a subject which I've kicked around for several years. I can see both sides....but can't give myself to the understanding that THAT many people are genetically pre-disposed to being gay and the whole 'bi' thing nauseates me. I've tried with all that is within me...and I can't consolidate it in my heart.

Then again, I knew a lesbian couple as neighbors once...and they were WONDERFUL people. They did the invetro thing....had a baby...and as far as I can tell...that child is as loved and secure as any heterosexual home...if not more so.

So...dumping the judgement call....maybe for a child...which is what this thread is about....whether they have a Daddy/Daddy, Mommy/Mommy, Daddy/ Mommy or only one parent....as long as they are totally loved and taken care of......maybe that's all that counts.

[Vautrin]

I am from the Netherlands, where gay marriage is already allowed. Even here we have some problems, as there are officials who refuse to execute the laws - which is in violation of the oaths they took.

Marriage is first and foremost a legal declaration. You have to marry first before the state before you can marry in church. So I can't see the problem there - of course if gay people want to marry in a church that does not allow for gay marriages, I can see why that would be an issue.

[Merika]

I'm glad you brought up that particular point Vautrin....it's that fine line between church and state which seems to cloud this issue. I'm not sure that anyone has a problem with a legal gay marriage...or perhaps calling it a 'legal union'....but when the church stuff gets pushed....then it becomes a major problem.

As for me, if I were gay, I'd bump the church...get my legal union....and call it a day. I wish I could consolidate the two...but I can't. And I'm not sure if trying to force the issue is the correct way for the gay community to go.

[Stone]

In My opinion as long as a child has a loving parent or ( parent's) that's all that matters. Sexuality should have nothing to do with the way a child is raised. I know a gay male couple who would be wonderful parents to a child but they can't adopt here in the United States.

There are so many children who need homes I am sure they don't care about the sex life of there adoptee's as long as they have a loving healthy home.

I don't believe that if a child comes from a gay home it will make that chid gay.

[Vautrin]

We are first and foremost (at least from a legal point of view) inhabitants of the US, Canada, the Netherlands, wherever we are. Which means we have to abide our respective laws. Laws which allow for gay marriage in the Netherlands, in Belgium, in Spain and Canada.

If you believe that eating certain foods is a sin, you are entitled to your belief. But you are not allowed to harass people to make certain that they don't eat that certain food. Especially if these people don't share that belief of you.

Not every gay is Catholic. Why should a non-Catholic follow Catholic teachings, in a secular matter? Unless you live in a theocratic and Catholic State, I don't see the rationale behind that.

[Merika]

I totally agee Vautrin. I don't think a gay person should at all feel they have to abide by or beg for the acceptance of the church. What I do think....is that they should leave the church alone....and quit trying to make people accept something they don't want to accept.

It's like if I was living within a Quaker community...but I chose to wear a red dress. That's my choice. I should be able to wear the red dress. BUT...I shouldn't make it my platform in life to make the Quakers ACCEPT my red dress and also wear red dresses.

I should wear my red and let them wear their black and gray. Now, everyone is legal and fine.

[Duke]

I don't care personally, there's so many heterosexual couples that screw their children up, maybe same sex marriages have the edge here. I say live and let live. Yes their gay, yes they want to be married and no longer be ashamed of who they are. Makes no difference to me but I'm still gonna remain hetero.

Wow, glad to see the topic worked!

Thanks for your replies. It's funny, I teach a lot of English classes over here and lately this has been one of those 'get a conversation going' type topics and the opinions that are expressed include the ones you've all outlined above.

The whole Catholic thing here in Spain is one which is still a big thing, even though the country has been administratively secular for a while now. It's more or less a right-left political split too, although in the last couple of years we've been treated to 'shock-horror' stories of homosexual priests ( a big no-no in traditional spanish society) homosexual politicians (more accepted :wink: and even a homosexual civil guard (national military police org, that one caused a real stir)

I personally think that as long as a child is loved, and not abused then it doesn't matter who brings him (or her) up. How many children have already been brought up by homosexual priests in religious boarding schools?

Also, thousands of children are messed up every year by heterosexual family couples that beat them and swear at them and abuse them in other ways, so I don't see homosexuals having the exclusive on bringing up children badly.

I don't think life's about tags. Makes us sound too much like an entry in technocrati.

[Ayla]

It's not society's place to tell anyone they're wrong for being homosexual. When judgement day comes they have to stand before God and account for their life and their decisions and me for mine.

We all just go through life doing the best we can, trying to survive and find a bit of joy along the way. If they find love and acceptance in the arms of the same sex then that is their choice. If they are a emotionally stable couple and can provide a child with a good loving home...who cares if it's two men or two women? As far as marraige for homosexuals go...It's just a title, what's the harm? How is it any diffrent than saying "Civil Union"? If that's what the want to call it let them.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=marriage

mar·riage ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrj)
n.

The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
The state of being married; wedlock.
A common-law marriage.
A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.

[darkangelism]

marriage has a religious base.

[Ayla]

So then Atheist should be banned from being married also. Right?

[Weiser]

Here's what I think.

Who friggin cares? People are people, some like the same sex. Who cares? Is it harming you in any way? No. Why do you need to stick your nose in other people's business? What is the catholic church? It's nothing more than a cult that sticks it's nose into everyones business and it's leaders are nothing more than bitter old men in horrible costums. Get Laid.

Take your church, turn it sideways, stick it in your poop shoot and leave people alone.

(I'm not talking about anyone here, I'm referring to the catholic church as a whole and it's leaders).

[/rant]

[darkangelism]

all government based unions should be civil unions, marriages should be church only.

[Ayla]

Originally Posted by darkangelism

all government based unions should be civil unions, marriages should be church only.

So what if you're not married in a church? Say you elope at the Justice of the Peace? You can't say you're married? You can only say we're civil partners?

I didn't say my vows in a church...does that mean I'm not married that I'm only in a civil union?

I'm not trying to be an arse here...but what's good for the goose is good for the gander too ya know?

[Star]

well, this is interesting. I didn't get married in a church either and i am a catholic. i got maried at the courthouse. does this mean i'm not married either? this so sounds like something my mother, the biblie thumping woman, would say to me. and she has!!

no. marriage is marriage no matter how you get married. getting married in a building that calls itself a "church" doesn't make it any different then getting married in a court house or in your back yard. Having a judge or a priest, rabi, minister, pastor or whatever religion you choose, doesn't make it any less of a marriage. a marriage is a marriage. it is the exact same marriage licence that you sign with your witnesses.

not everyone in this world are religious people. does that mean that anyone who isn't religious that get married means nothing? I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

everyone has the right to be themselves, to believe in what they want to believe in, to live their lives anyway they please and they also have the right to get married wherever they choose to get married.

marriage is marriage.

[sweetbilly]

Personally, i don't feel it's ok for homosexuals to adopt. I don't think it's fair to subject an innocent, naive child to an environment that says "sex means absolutely nothing and you can have it with anyone anytime you want" Life has natural rules which should not be changed; for the sake of humanity those rules should not be changed either. I also believe children need both a mother and a father to give them a balanced unbaised healthy upbringing. Children who have only one parent or two parents of one sex often have much tougher time as they grow up relating to others and to the world. I think it's important for a child to distinguish the difference between a woman and a man, women have babies men can not, women are the nurturing caring side of humanity and men aren't. However, men are the model children look to for stability and provision. Having two parents of the same sex can distort these natural laws causing sexual and role reversal identity issues later in life ofter causing pain for the child who is confused.

Not to change the subject, but I read a very interesting psychological report in college, which was unfortunately never completed. It stated there was a unique and intringic relationship between homosexuality, canibalism, child molestation and serial killers. They said something like 97% of all known serial killers and violent child molestators were often homosexual and showed an unhealthy sexual desire toward the same sex. And often they had unhealty desires to eat the same sex!! In every single case it showed that there was a unique pattern to their behavior which was often spurred on in later years by past sexual abuse as a child which led to sexual identity issues later. This theory was exemplified by Jeffry Dahamer, who ate the sexual organs of his victims, was a homosexual and was abused by an adult as a child. So sometimes the results are not fully recognized until later in adult life. Not saying anyone who is homosexual now is going to become a serial killer, the odds are probably pretty low, but the relationship here cannot be simply disreguarded and i don't think it's ok to subject a child or society to this kind of risk later because of some kind of political correctness now.

[Vautrin]

Interestingly enough, there has not been any proof that women are more predisposed to care for children than men. So there is no argument there. So what is considered natural is in fact cultural. Makes a difference.

Even if these figures would be true, you would have to wonder about the cause. I suspect the list was already precompiled. Barring a few tribes in Papua New Guinea, cannibalism is not a common occurance in the human race, at any place, anywhere. Given that homosexuality is not 100% shared even in genetically identical twins, there is reason to believe that other things than just plain genetics play a role. And it is not the sexual preference of their parents. How would heterosexual parents get homosexual children then?
As for serial killers, it is not hard to come up with a list of heterosexual serial killers. Some who may have been abused in their youth. Some of whom may have gone through trauma in war-time. Some who apparently have no reason to kill, and some who "simply" hate men or women. But all of this is irrelevant to the matter of adoption.

Studies have shown that there is no relationship between the sexes of both parents, and the sexual preference of the child. Nor is there a relationship between the sexes of both parents and the level of adjustment a child displays.
There is simply no scientific proof that there is a relationship between that. I could sample a few rednecks, about current cultural policies in Austria, and decide that all Americans know nothing about anything in Europe, but that would be off the mark, would not it?

As for adopting, I cannot see why a sexual preference is of any importance. What matters is the quality of life the adoption parents can offer to the child.

[Star]

As for adopting, I cannot see why a sexual preference is of any importance. What matters is the quality of life the adoption parents can offer to the child.

I have a friend who was adopted by a couple. they ended up divorcing because her adoptive mother as it turns out was a lesbian.

my friend grew up with her mother and her mother's lesbian lover until she moved out. it affected her big time. she was embarassed about it and always questioned herself on her femininety. self-concious about the way she sits, talked, acted. always wondering if people thought she was a lesbian because her mother was. it did a huge number on her emotionally and mentally.

my friend is now 48 years old and we recently talked about this and she still feels pretty much the same way as she always has. I had to reassure her that she is feminine and a lady and that nobody ever thought she was a lesbian.

so, there is a downside to homosexuals adopting children. I, personally, don't agree with it as i seen what it can do to a child in my friend. Kids are cruel to begin with. how cruel do you think they'll be to a child that has homosexual parents? chances are high that the kid will be teased left, right and center on a daily basis. it really isn't fair to a child to start off their social life that way. JMHO.[/quote]

[Vautrin]

One complicating factor in the whole story is, that the sexual identity of the mother "changed." You are not comparing homo- and heterosexual couples, in the matter as intended.
Although you do wonder if some people see heterosexual marriage as a means to acquire children, if it is made impossible for non-heterosexual people. It sounds bizarre, I admit to that. But I would not exclude the possibility of that happening either.

Star, I can also give you an example of a case where a child was adopted by a heterosexual couple. And the father turned out to be a murderer, or even a rapist. Does that mean that all heterosexual couples have a negative impact on the adopted children? Of course not. Only that particular "father."

It is "only" a single case - and that is bad enough. But on average, if a disorder / delinquency is going to manifest itself, knowing that makes it impossible to accurately predict whether or not.

Abuse is not limited to one sexual orientation. Homosexuals can be abusive, but so can heterosexuals. It is not the sexuality that explains things, but the abusive behavior and its causes.

[darkangelism]

i had a friend whose mother was a lesbian, she got a guy to get her pregnant and he was a little weird about girl stuff. He tried to hide it to. Then my best friend over the summer was a lesbian and she had kids, her partner was artifically inseminated. So for lesbians they can have kids regardless of whether or not they adopt them. im not sure what my point is though,lol.

[Star]

Originally Posted by Vautrin

One complicating factor in the whole story is, that the sexual identity of the mother "changed." You are not comparing homo- and heterosexual couples, in the matter as intended.

it didn't change vautrin. she just hid it up until that point. she was in the "closet" so to speak.

Star, I can also give you an example of a case where a child was adopted by a heterosexual couple. And the father turned out to be a murderer, or even a rapist. Does that mean that all heterosexual couples have a negative impact on the adopted children? Of course not. Only that particular "father."

It is "only" a single case - and that is bad enough. But on average, if a disorder / delinquency is going to manifest itself, knowing that makes it impossible to accurately predict whether or not.

Abuse is not limited to one sexual orientation. Homosexuals can be abusive, but so can heterosexuals. It is not the sexuality that explains things, but the abusive behavior and its causes.

i understand your point, i really truly do and you are right. sexual preference doesn't mean abuse by no means. My point wasn't the parent being abusive, it was society in general. kids are cruel. this isn't something that has changed a whole lot in generations because kids are still cruel. they tease, they bully and they will make a child's life hell in this kind of situation.

I really don't agree with homosexuals adopting children. i don't agree with it because of the reason i stated above and because of my religious upbringing. I just don't feel it's the right thing for a child. I have nothing against people's sexual preferences. to each their own is what i do believe and i respect that. i just don't think it's right to bring a child into that lifestyle. it's just my honest opinion.

[Ayla]

One point I'd like to make about your friend Star...she's 48. That's about my mom's age. We live in a COMPLETELY diffrent world now that they did while they were growing up. 50 years ago it wasn't acceptable in society at large to be homosexual. Now for the most part it's accepted by society...and I would much rather see a child have a homosexual couple as parents than for them to have a drug addict mom and a drunken dad that beats them.

[darkangelism]

the world isnt that much different, there is still a lot of issues and the kid will be made fun of.