capital punishment

[Merika]

Quick fact about the money spent by your president - your money

Generally, we will chose to keep our country safe and kill terrorists elsewhere.....rather than keeping murdering A$$HATS alive.

These are the only statistics in our heart....and we'll spend WHATEVER it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again:

Number killed in attack on New York, in the Twin Towers and in aircraft that crashed into them: 2,823

Distance, in miles, from which the burning towers were visible: 20

Number of days underground fires at World Trade Centre continued to burn: 69

Number of days that workers dug up debris at Ground Zero, searching for body parts: 230

Number of body parts collected: 19,500

Number of bodies discovered intact: 291

Number of victims identified by New York medical examiner: 1,102

Number of death certificates issued without a body at request of victims' families: 1,616

Number of people still classified as missing from the World Trade Centre that day: 105

Number of people who died when American Airlines flight 11 from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center: 92

Number of people who died when United Airlines flight 175

from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, crashed into the south tower of the World Trade Center: 65

Number of people who died when United Airlines flight 93,

from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, California, crashed in rural southwest Pennsylvania: 45

Number of people who died when American Airlines flight 77,

from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon: 64

Number of people killed in the Pentagon: 125

Number of survivors rescued from Ground Zero: 0
------------------------

In comparison to that.....money means absolutely NOTHING to any true American!

[darkangelism]

most of those bodies are not ours, we have about 2300 dead, less then the number killed on 9/11.

The whole insurgency is the minority not wanting to give up power, it has nothing to do with us being there, and now both sides want us there because otherwise they will kill each other.

Basically it is like if african americans had a dictatorship(Sunni) tried genocide against the hispanics(kurd) and killed any white people(****e) who talked bad about the government oppression. Then a foreign government saves the people but the black people dont want to give up power and fight everybody to stay in power. But if it was the US and those were the stakes then europe and the world would intervene, its just cause it doesnt involve white people that they dont care about the oppression, just like Rawanda.

The fact is that the Saddam regime was a minority controlling the majority and they dont want to become the minority. Of course now they poked the sleeping bear and the ****es are getting tired of the attacks. The whole thing will end really fast if a civil war starts, the sunni's will be destroyed and a stable ****e government will be built. We just have to stop other countreis from intervening.

As for the 250b its not that much over three years, i mean our economy is the best in the world be a huge margin. I mean our GDP is larger then the EU and the EU has 70 million more workers and a 100 million more people. It will all be worth it 10 years down the line when iraq is strong and stable. If we want to kep the cost down then we should just nuke em...which should be the solution to iran or north korea, nobody will dare mess with us then. Throughout history the best way to determine the strength of a civilization was military might, and it hasnt changed.


anyway back to capital punishment, canada outlawed the death penalty because of it being inhumane and the fact of wrongly convicted people. But i dont think they are any better off because of it. I mean out here in oklahoma the death penalty is used often and it works. of course if somebody robs your house and you shoot them, the news calls you a hero, which is great, in NY you would go to jail for defending yourself.

[twinkle]

Originally Posted by Merika

Quick fact about the money spent by your president - your money

Generally, we will chose to keep our country safe and kill terrorists elsewhere.....rather than keeping murdering A$$HATS alive.

These are the only statistics in our heart....and we'll spend WHATEVER it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again:

Number killed in attack on New York, in the Twin Towers and in aircraft that crashed into them: 2,823

Distance, in miles, from which the burning towers were visible: 20

Number of days underground fires at World Trade Centre continued to burn: 69

Number of days that workers dug up debris at Ground Zero, searching for body parts: 230

Number of body parts collected: 19,500

Number of bodies discovered intact: 291

Number of victims identified by New York medical examiner: 1,102

Number of death certificates issued without a body at request of victims' families: 1,616

Number of people still classified as missing from the World Trade Centre that day: 105

Number of people who died when American Airlines flight 11 from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center: 92

Number of people who died when United Airlines flight 175

from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, crashed into the south tower of the World Trade Center: 65

Number of people who died when United Airlines flight 93,

from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, California, crashed in rural southwest Pennsylvania: 45

Number of people who died when American Airlines flight 77,

from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon: 64

Number of people killed in the Pentagon: 125

Number of survivors rescued from Ground Zero: 0
------------------------

In comparison to that.....money means absolutely NOTHING to any true American!

Terrorosts did that, Mmerika, not the Iraki people. Terrorsits from Afghanistan, Talibans, more precis. The same Talibans the USA did help to get to power years ago.

What the heck does that have to do with IRak? Or, it was Sadam Hussein. He's in prison now. Why on Earth are you still in Irak? Money spent on that is nothing compared to the fact that you ar letting young Americans get killed. For nothing. There is nothing in Irak.There never was. And your president will keep your young sons there just to prove that he wasn't wrong to go there in the first place.


DA, the number of civillians killed is around 30. 000. Are they not worthy because they're not Americans?


Back to he Death penalty: the argument I was fighting agains is that a prisoner costs you a few thousand dollars per year to be kept alive. TO take the other statistic, the Iraki war costs you $100,000/minute. I say you have a laaaarge margin.Most killers do not kill people they do not know. In fact, it's most probable for any of us to get killed by our companion or someone in our close antourage than a serial killer or a theif. Makes one wonder...

[Vautrin]

To add to twinkle: if DA did murder someone, he would get the higher sentence, than if I did that. The chances of him getting the death penalty for murdering me is a lot higher than when I would murder him, in the same fashion. Kinda strange is not it?

The 30,000 is a confirmed number. In large parts of the country it is even impossible to confirm the causes. In my opinion 99% of those who died of leukemia should also be included in that statistic; as that is the increase of cases of leukemia since the second Gulf War of the early 1990's.

The connection between Iraq and the attacks of 9/11 was not there. 15 out of 19 hijackers came from Saudi-Arabia. Last time I checked the news, that lovely dictatorship was not being bombed to smithereens.

Not to mention the US-Pakistani relationships that are worrisome. If you fight for freedom: Do not support a military dictator. Makes your argument kinda bogus.

[twinkle]

I just want to say that because I don't approve of this war, I'm not Anti-American, even if I know I sure do sound like one, LOL.

I'm sure V.'s not anti American either, we're simply... Europeans

I appologise again for hijacking the thread.


Back to the main subject: doesn't the death penalty make someone a murderer? I mean someone has to make the shot ot pull the plugs or something...

[darkangelism]

and how many civilians died under saddam? remember all of those mass graves? and those people are being killed by their own, its not us killing them.

Yeah you are europeans, which i basically see as people who try to talk to madmen with reason and wonder why it doesnt work...like hitler and the same mistakes were repeated with saddam until the gulf war, then he continued to use bio weapons against the kurds and nobody did anything about it, except use ineffective nonviolent solutions.

No its not murder because murder is the "unlawful" killing, this is protected by law. and if you use your logic, just replace the phrase death penalty with abortion.

The death penalty has been around for thousands of years in every civilization, which proves its effectivness otherwise it would not be used.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by darkangelism

and how many civilians died under saddam? remember all of those mass graves? and those people are being killed by their own, its not us killing them.

Last time I checked, Saddam did not use the treasury of the US to do that.
And secondly, it are US (and Brittish) troops doing a lot of the killing too.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by darkangelism

The death penalty has been around for thousands of years in every civilization, which proves its effectivness otherwise it would not be used.

Hence it does not exist in most parts of Europe. And there are a billion things that are not effective but are used for thousands of years. Think of cures and remedies for the common flu.

[twinkle]

[quote="darkangelism"]and how many civilians died under saddam? remember all of those mass graves? and those people are being killed by their own, its not us killing them.

Yeah you are europeans, which i basically see as people who try to talk to madmen with reason and wonder why it doesnt work...like hitler and the same mistakes were repeated with saddam until the gulf war, then he continued to use bio weapons against the kurds and nobody did anything about it, except use ineffective nonviolent solutions.

[quote]

Do you like Star treck, DA? One of the rules of the Navigator while travelling was to not interfear in the evolutions of the civilisation they met. Yes, Irakias were killed. And it was upt to them to fight and rebel and do their own justice. Each country needs to have their period of downfall to learn by itself to do better. Irak is in a civil war right now, it is torn apart. Saddam was a horrible leader, but a leader, non the least.

Why didn't the USA come to Romania to set the country free from our dictator - who did kill thousands in jail, instaured famine in all the country? I guess the answer is that there's no oil in Romania .

I admire your sincerity of heart, but there isn't such a thing as altruism, not in the USA's foreigh affair policy .

What's in a law? WE, us PEOPLE make the laws. We are stronger than the laws. And are to respond to our own conscience, not the law, when we act. The law is that abvortion pills are legal. Why do pharmacists refuse to sell it? Because they believe that they participate to a kiling.

The law has a social role, but not necessarily a moral one.

[darkangelism]

well actually the reason for romania was the russians and us overestimating their strength. AND the fact that france, germany and britain should have helped.

In star trek you refer to the prime directive, they were not to interfere yes, but that only applied to civilizations who were vastly inferior.

The fact is the iraqi's wouldnt have been able to overthrow him, he ruled by fear, when you watch people get killed for going aggainst him, you stop trying. I mean it is like saying that Hitler killing the jews was an internal affair and we should look the other way, which is what europe did for quite awhile. How come the jews couldnt rise up and fight the nazi's themselves? Afterall hitler treated the Aryan's well, developed volkswagon, rebuilt germany from losing WWI, so he was a leader.

Europe hasnt seem to have learned from WWII, they still try and reason with people that cant be reasoned with, they are trying it in iran and every day that passes its one day closer to them having a nuke. The reason is that Europe is still trying to act like they are in control, like they were at the height of their empires, but they arnt, thats why they created the EU, none of the countries are powerful anymore, so they try to team up, but it isnt working cause they cant agree on how it should be done.

The US on the otherhand trys to stop problems before they occur, like the gulf war, we stopped saddam, and we should have finished him then...he was planning on invading saudi arabia after kuwait then he would have attacked isreal.

The fact is that this war should have been taken care of in the 90s by the UN, but the UN is weak, a waste of space and money.

[twinkle]

DA, my friend, Americans didn't stop Hiltes because he was killing jews, but because he declare war to half the countries in Europe. Hitles was not a German internal affair, like Hussein was.

So no, you cannot compare apples to pears.

In star trek you refer to the prime directive, they were not to interfere yes, but that only applied to civilizations who were vastly inferior

So I guess USA is the main formce able to declare what "vastly inferior" is.

Look, Why don't we just have things straight: USA cares for no one's best interest but itsself. No selfless act. That is the truth. Please stop the justifications, IMHO, they are futile.

It is every country's duty to do that: protect what's best for them. The main difference between the USA and Europe is that Europe never debarked in another country and instaured chaos in it.

IT seems to me that it is you who never learnt a thing from the Vietnam war.

What you did with Irak is the same as police going into your house, without a warrent or any proof, trashing your house and your family becausethey "know" you have drugs hidden somewhere. And then start inspecting everything inside your own house, looking for proves that you are guilty.

Hello, you may be guilty like sin, how about respecting the procedures???

MAy I remind you that you didn't go to Irak because Hussein was killing people, but because your dear president was dying to find a scape goat, to aliment this paranoia of WMS, of hidden terrorists and enemies of America.


USA acts like it's the gift sent from God to save the humanity, when in fact all that you do is act upon your own wishes and interest.

I am ashamed with Europe for letting you get away with it, but I guess we're smarter than to invest money in stopping you - aka war in Irak, because one continent throwing its money out of the window is enough of a waste. I am ashamed for Europe letting you instaure chaos in Middle East, but I guess any interference in your foreign policy would equal a third world war.

And then we'd all be dead .

USA lived no WW, not WWI or WWII. You surely are NOT in the position to say anything about how we took it. You cities were not distroyed to the ground, you were not under foreign occupancy, your economy was not flat zero. So please, have the decency not to teach anyone any lessons about this subject.

Europe is like an oldfashioned lady who acts according to the law. That's our biggest fault.

[Vautrin]

Hitler only declared war on the US after the bombing of Pearl Harbour. Last time I checked my history that did not happen in 1933 or 1934. By that time Operation Barbarossa was already in full swing. So where was US humanitarianism? It was nowhere to be found.

The fact that my girlfriend is South African by birth can be attributed to the unwillingness, and the "humanitarianism" of ALL countries in the Western world for accepting refugees from Germany.

The US did not join WW I in 1914 either.

In fact after the Kuwait War the US had promised the opposition some support if they rose against Saddam. They rose, but support did not come, and the rebellion that was almost country-wide was suppressed as a result; Saddam's military might had not completely collapsed. The US simply preferred Saddam over what may have arisen as a result of a succesful rebellion. The humanitarianism!

There still exists controversy: Saddam accused the Kuwaitis of stealing oil in the border region. Apparently such a thing is unlawful.
But again, proof is apparently not needed to declare war, so I can't see why Saddam should not have been allowed to occupy Kuwait in retrospect, if such reasoning is valid.

And if the Brittish intelligence service releases a decade old project of a student as the ultimate proof that Iraq has WMD, which was known worldwide within 48 hours, you don't have to be a genius to see that the Intelligence services even lacked a bit of creativity to come up with hard-to-falsify statements.

But back to the topic.

In fact, in the US minors can be given the death penalty. That happens in only 5 countries in the world, Iran and Saudi-Arabia amongst them. I can't see why the Iranians should be part of the axis of evil, if they are just as humanitarian as the US in their civil law.

[darkangelism]

I know we didnt enter WWII because of hitler killing jews, but niether did france or britain, who should have. But we learned to stop dictators that are a threat, and not every dictator is. We went into yugoslavia and now iraq, the fact is with the inteligence that we had regardless of how accurate it was we did what we thought needed to be done, hindsight is 20/20. But the fact is saaddam should have been removed in the 90s if not after the gulf war then when he gassed kurds.

As for the world wars, we saved europe twice, the british would have fallen at somepoint.

Yeah we made a mistaake not baking the iraqis after the gulf war, just like not going into rwanda was a mistake.

Maybe saddam didnt have WMD, but id much rather be safe then be wrong, what if he did, and terrorists got them and released them in a sports stadium and 50,000 people die, then everybody would say trhat we should have done something earlier.

This isnt like vietnam, that was much worse, and we should have won that one too.

Everybody that is fighting in iraq wants to be there, there is no draft, the people there are there by choice and they b