Love Yourself?

[Paul]

We live in a time of instant gratification, where most pleasures are available at the touch of a button and a different emotion can be evoked merely but changing the channel. My observation today is regarding how this mindset affects our relationships and our dating lives.

From the time they are young, children are told stories and fairytales of princes and princesses and happily-ever-afters. Throughout our lives there's this underlying ideology of 'everybody needs someone' which starts from the time you are a child. In our teen years we started feeling strong emotions and physical needs, and the longing to express both. Most commonly we expressed it through emotional, physical and sexual bonds with our peers. By the time you reach your 20's and adulthood, you've most likely had at least a couple relationships and the sum of your experiences have helped define your sexual preferences, types of mates, dating patterns and to a degree, your opinion of yourself.

The point I'd like to make is something I see far to often as one of the issues at the root of unsuccessful relationships, destructive behaviour and consistent patterns of choosing the wrong type of mate. It's that quite often people just plain don't like themselves. Let me pose a question, how can you truely love someone else, be forgiving and understanding of them, if you don't respect, forgive or understand yourself? I'm not talking about being proud or putting on a face, as that is just a mask for underlying issues, I mean knowing who you are, being content with who you are and loving yourself.

To often people are looking for someone to "complete" them, bouncing around from one relationship to the next looking for someone who be that perfect match. Others are just looking for sex and gratification, only to discover they haven't found it which causes them to repeat this cycle again. I'm not calling into question anyones lifestyle, I'm merely making the observation that perhaps if you are looking to others to find some sort of fulfilment, you may someday come to the conclusion that I have, which is you won't be able to find someone you TRUELY respect, trust and love until you've dealt with these issues within yourself.

Of course this is all just my opinion and open for discussion, please feel free to comment or debate the ideas above, I'd love to hear what you have to say!

[Roserman]

Sounds about right, society today forces the viewpoint on us that you need to get hitched in order for your life to be complete. Without that, you'll always be missing something.

For the most part I believe that is totally false. I for one will not settle for anyone. If I don't find someone that is absolutely utterly perfect for me, I'm not really going to be totally into them from a relationship point of view. It's just the way I am. I'm not going to force myself into anything only because I'm "supposed" to. Especially when the only real thing I'll get out of such a relationship will be sex and a female companion.

Basically what it boils down to, is that I'll be perfectly happy with everything regardless of whether I find someone perfect for me or not. I don't really have any expectations that I will find them, so I'm not really going to be let down.

[Duke]

Both, very good points and I agree 110%. The only thing I can caution you on is to, at least, keep your mind open. Sometimes you can miss someone truly special who's been under your nose the whole time. Also, youth doesn't help much either (at least it didn't for me). I ended up hurting at least one very special girl and messing up something that could have been great.

Society crams a lot of ideals down our throats and its up to the individual what they conform to. I don't eat then cram a plunger down my throat so you can wash clothes on my stomach, I don't have purple hair and a skateboard, I don't bleach my teeth or wear contacts. I am who I am naturally, if I am to be judged by people based off of my looks, then these are the people I chose not to associate with.

Essentially it boils down to how your comfortable and finding someone who shares your interests and feelings (to a certain point). I don't believe there's such a thing as a perfect mate but I do believe in a perfect match. No matter how great you think you are, you are flawed, we all are. Finding someone who accepts and loves you for your flaws, yet helps you round out your weakpoints is my idea of a perfect mate.

[Paul]

Great points guys, very thought provoking! I completely agree with you Roserman, being with someone doesn't define who we are as people, I've been very happy being single and in fact cautious about entering any type of realtionship which I know won't be longterm and beneficial to us both. The person you're with should compliment who you are, I don't mean by saying complimenting things to the other person, it's through your actions and personality that you compliment eachother, you're like an extension of eachother. That's true compatibility.

I've known this girl for 3 years and when we met we immediately had a strong connection, our personalities click and have had a great friendship which has grown into a relationship, but even if we weren't dating I'd still love her, it's the bond we have, the fact that we want to be together only makes it better. I'm just using this as an example but this is the only reference I have that's really worth commenting on.

Getting off track here a bit but also another point worth mentioning is the fact that being "in love" isn't supposed to be blind and stupid or just based on feelings as most people would prefer. My own defintion of love is being redifined daily but I'm beginning to more fully understand that it's loving someone as much as you love yourself, part of that is if you respect the person and can trust them, over-looking thier faults and accepting them as human beings who make mistakes and are not perfect. I believe that's the point you were making Duke, there are no perfect mates (people) but there is a perfect match.

But in saying that, love should also be discerning as to whether or not the person is a positive influence on your life and whether there's enough compatibility to continue persuing the relationship. Duke and I were talking about this last night and I realized also that loving someone means knowing when to let go for both your sakes, at a point where you wouldn't be respecting yourself or her if you allowed it to drag on and cause feelings of resentment. Ending a relationship for the right reasons can be
amicable and best for both of you, especially in circumstances where issues like distance which keep people apart.

Anyway I've taken the long way around but all this comes back the topic of this discussion, learn to love and respect yourself first, only then can you find someone who will truely love and respect you and be deserving of your love and respect in return.

[Duke]

It's funny how we all define love. For me it's in the eyes of a beautiful 9 year old girl who's the center of my universe. Prior to my daughter being born, I though I knew what love is. I clearly didn't and I'll likely never fully understand the meaning of love.

We've laughed, cried, yelled, and belittled each other just as happens in relationships with your wife/girlfriend, yet I know that my heart feels warm when I think of her and I can feel my tear ducts fill. I simply can't imagine my life without her and refuse to even consider it. Maybe that's what love truly is, a non-exhistant exhistance that is now behind you and you are the better for it. This, of course, is a parents love for his child.

I think that if you experience the above emotions with your significant other, and know the feelings are reciprocated, then you've met your lifetime companion. The question becomes though, how do you know exactly what your spouse is feeling? How do you fall out of love?

[Kitlope]

I have to admit I'm quite negative when it comes to relationships, although I am getting better. I have had only 1 real relationship in my life, the one with Shantelle that lasted for 6 years. We broke up some years ago and it left a very sour taste in my mouth.

At 24, I burst on the dating scene in full colors. I figured this whole dating thing was going to be easy as pie. Boy was I in for a shock. It took some time but I realized that its a joke. I quit trying so hard and its become easier.

I learnt if you put a woman on a pedestal your going to get walked on. I learnt that sex means nothing to many, people go out and get drunk, use their drunkness as the excuse and sleep around. You can't beat them so join them. I did.

I moved in with a girl last month. We have known each other for a few years and have become "friends with benefits". Perhaps it will lead to something more serious, it seems to already. Its very strange, I haven't lived with a woman since 6 years. We'll see how it goes....

[Duke]

I hope it works out for you living with this woman kitty. It's always an easy decision to move in with someone but usually difficult to make work if you're not fully compatible. Good luck!

I think many of us did just as you described, "burst onto the dating scene". I myself did and had several girlfriends in a very short amount of time. I had little or no chance of success with any of them because I was only looking for fun, not love. Of course I didn't know that at the time.

Now that I'm older, I'm looking to settle down and not be as much of a tard as I've been pretty much my whole life. I have a great daughter and a beautiful woman that I care about. I'm at an age now where I've experienced enough of the lifestyle associated with youth and just want some structure.

BTW, I'm not sure if I agree that getting married is an ideal that is really pushed at us as hard as being thin or looking trendy. In my case, at least, I wan't to settle down simply because I'm at a point where I've had enough of being alone. I would love to share the rest of my life with a great person and grow together.

[Paul]

From what I've observed there are different kinds of love, the Greeks break it down into 3 types:

eros has to do with sensual love, most romances are built on, it has no enduring quality of any kind

phileo is the love of one brother for another, it's the love of a father for his child, typically follows bloodlines

agape is a deeper and more intense and eternal love, even when the recipient doesn't deserve it, love no matter what

Love is a complicated thing but IMO it's one thing that when it's real, you know it. What you feel for your daughter and what she reciprocates to you Duke is real love. To find that intensity of love with and from another person, a mate if you will, is rare, but when that happens you have found your lifetime companion. Not many people do find that person, to often people miss what's right under their nose, settle for someone who doesn't deserve them or give in to pressure to get married, which isn't the point of love at all.

My personal experience is limited in the amount of love but just as intense in scope. Outside of friends and family, I've only loved one girl, when I met her and got to know her then I loved her as a friend because she is someone who has a personality and attitude that is eternally positive, open, giving, caring, loving and in return is easy to love. As we've gotten to know eachother and entered into a relationship I've discovered that we are extremely compatible in our attitudes, views and ideals, but also that I love this person and care about this person like I do about myself. To any relationship this is essential! True love is selfless, when I'm with her it's not about what I can get out of it, it's about her pleasure and enjoyment! Love is all about the other person, this is also how you'll know whether it's real or not because the other person will be concerned about your pleasure and treat you the same way. We respect and admire eachother, can hold an intelligent converstation and learn from each other, appreciate and despise much of the same things. The fact is her and I deserve and appreciate each other, we realize the value of what we have and hold it in high esteem. What I know from being with her is that I love her intensely, enjoy just being with her and from her actions and words I know she feels the same. I would even go as far as to say that I've met my match.

What's awesome about it is I'm completely aware of the role emotions play, how people want to be in love and will fool thier minds into believing anything. I understand that we change and people change and that with all the circumstances that arise in this world, I might not be with this girl forever, her and I have talked about this and realized that most importantly we have a strong friendship which is the base of our relationship which is a good foundation to base everything on. If either of us felt that the relationship wasn't working or our feelings changed, we have enough respect for one another to discuss this with each other and realizing that we always have our friendship to fall back on.

If I truely love someone, would I try to hold them in a relationship where they weren't happy? Would I force myself into thier life or push my ideals on them? That wouldn't be love at all, true love is evident in the fact that you're willing to let someone be who they are, love them for who they are, let them grow in thier own way and sometimes that even means letting someone go in hope that someday they might find thier way back.

I think that if you experience the above emotions with your significant other, and know the feelings are reciprocated, then you've met your lifetime companion. The question becomes though, how do you know exactly what your spouse is feeling? How do you fall out of love?

These are great questions Duke and to the best of my ability I'm going to take a crack at answering them. You can never ever know exactly what someone else is feeling but you can get a very good idea by thier actions. As I said before, true love is about being selfless, about being preoccupied with the well-being and pleasure of the other person rather then yourself, you can get a pretty good idea of the level and validity of love your mate has for you by the way he/she acts towards you. But the same goes for you, if you truely love him/her then you won't just show it, you'll live it.

How do you fall out of love? Well as I suggested before, I think people can grow apart or change but personally I think that if the relationship isn't based on a loving, caring friendship in the first place then any strain on the relationship can spell doom. If it is based on a strong friendship then you never actually stop loving the person, you're just smart enough to realize when something isn't working or is having a negative effect on either one of you and step back from it, that is if selfishness isn't part of the equation. My personal opinion is that if you fall out of love with the person, you probably didn't really love them in the first place, more likely you loved being with them or how they made you feel, but feelings can change.

[Duke]

Wow, you've certainly said a mouthful there my friend, obviously you've given this a lot of thought. The fact that you've done so may mean that you have found your life partner.

Most of my relationships have started off physical and ended in a mess. The instant gratification obviously wore off over time and that's when things fell apart. I now know a great gal who I have not been physical yet which has given me a chance to get to know her. This has been a completely new experience for me and I must say that it's great. The importance of the physical and the pressures associated with it are completely gone. I think of her as my most intimate of friends and love her very much as a result.

She also accepts me for my many flaws and doesn't expect me to be anything but who I am. The best part of that is I'm still not sure who I am or who I'm becoming but she continues to care about me without prejudice.

[Paul]

Interestingly enough it actually came to me quite easily, I think it's the culmination of what I've gone through during my life with various types of realtionships and what I've learned from being wrong all of those years. Mostly in the past I've taken my views on love from my parents and what I observed from those around me, having my parents split up after 25 years of marriage and seeing friends truely miserable in relationships simply because they are blind to or choose not to take action has really forced me to examine my own life and question my views.

Quite honestly I was raised to be an emotional cripple and I was for a time, my mother taught me well. I was the focal point for her agression and she would manipulate my father through her whining and crying, then I would be the target on which they would take out thier frustration. Don't get me wrong, I love my parents very much and can look back now and discuss this with them, but thier actions sent me confused signals and caused me to grow up quite insecure and unsure of anything. I was very shy when I met new people and would go to great lengths to avoid doing so, then when I did know people I was overly bold, the craving I had for attention would permit me to go far beyond what is acceptable behavior in order to gain the favor of my peers. I was very emotional, my highs were incredible and my lows were rock bottom and the change to either happened quite often. This was the teen years of my life. Dating relationships didn't happen, what little I did do was have purely physical relationships with a couple girls up until I was 19 but mostly they just made things worse. The fact that we moved every 2 years didn't help, I always had to make friends again and this became quite painful especially for a 2 year period where I was bullied in grade 6 and 7. I sought seclusion and just wanted to be alone, away from people, the school guidance counsellor told my parents it was a retardation of a sort on my part. I had a very hard time trusting people after that and if a guidance counsellor tried to talk to me after that, I pretty much just bull****ted them. Living in a small province, in a small city was hard too because it was a situation where you knew everyone or knew of them at least and you were always labeled. Once you got labeled then that's it, that's who you are for the rest of your life and no matter what you do these people will always try to drag you down and remind you of every mistake you've made in your life, they want you to fail and revel in it when you do. I remember when I moved to a new school one time and some kids knew people from the old school and it just carried over from one place to the next, how horrible is that?

The changes in my life have come from a few things, firstly God, then moving away from that province and then looking inward at myself. I use to take things very personally, hold things in and let them consume me. So I learnt to just let it go, let nothing bother me and say screw it. When I was about 21 I started doing this, after some bad situations ripped friendships apart and I saw some of the people for what they really were. I started saying screw it about people, what they would tell me, how they would try to keep me down and confine me to the box with the label they wanted. Basically I stopped caring what people thought of me and trying to do anything to please anyone else. The manner I did it was harsh in some ways and in fact this was at the time that I met this girl named Mary Anne who was just a kid who would hang around with us. During this time I realized I had to get away from this negative atmosphere and just start over, I cut off almost all my friendships including to that girl and with only a couple people knowing, I packed up and moved away. It was the best thing I ever did, being alone forced me to look at myself much more deeply and take some actions, make some decisions, for my life. I can quite honestly now say I haven't experienced any type of depressed feeling in over 2 years, have become totally independant and have a good job which I enjoy. In the past couple of years I've been toning down my "screw it" attitude a bit because it's not necessary anymore at the point I am in my life, plus I learnt that I had hurt a friend without even realizing it, the girl who is now my girlfriend, Mary Anne.

She also accepts me for my many flaws and doesn't expect me to be anything but who I am. The best part of that is I'm still not sure who I am or who I'm becoming but she continues to care about me without prejudice.

I know exactly what you mean bud, my girl cared about me despite what had happened and as we get to know each other more and more, I appreciate just how special and unique a person she is, how selfless she is and I adore her for it.

Sorry for the tangent, just got carried away but if anyone can take anything away from this I hope it is that you realize you are the maker of your own destiny. Your childhood and life experiences influence you but they do not make you who you are, that comes by choice. I started out getting beatings and being depressed and now have a healthy relationship with both my parents and having not felt depressed in years. The reason why? I believe in what one of my friends called a "revolutionary concept!" (lol) and that is that happiness is a choice! I absolutely 100% believe that. I'm not happy because of things that happen or people I'm with, I'm happy anyway and the good things that happen to me on top of that are just bonuses! I have friends who are only happy when they are high or drunk, they offer me substances and I turn them down but they don't get that. I explain to them that I choose to go through life with my eyes wide open and my head clear, I don't have to be drunk to have a good time, I can have just as much fun sober and have the benefit of remembering it. Life is fun, it's an adventure and you only get to do it once, I love it and I'm having a blast doing it. In all seriousness, there is no one I'd rather be in this world but me, who I am, the abilities I have, the life and opportunities I have are amazing! I know some people will probably think I'm a nutcase but to me life is awesome and frankly I want to remember every second of it! That's what life is about, experiences, so enjoy it. Live it!

[Duke]

I can honestly say that my life is pretty good too. I have the best kid in the world and I'm not saying that as a proud dad, I truly believe it. Actually, labelling her as a kid isn't fair either, she is a truly great person who has taught me things about myself that 36 years on this planet never has. I've met a great gal who I'll be linking up with later in the year to see if there's a future for us together which I believe there is. Even though we haven't "been together" yet, we've experienced intamacy on levels that I never really new existed. She also has a way of showing me my flaws but not crucifying me for them as I have been in virtually every other relationship to date.

I am a different person than you Paul in many different ways. I do drink socially with my friends but don't require it. In fact, for a period in my 20's I was much more than a social drinker, I was an alcoholic. I drank every day and used my social status as an excuse. I had a few bad experiences with girlfriends at the time and some rage problems because of my own insecurities and pittied myself very much. It took me a while to see the err of my ways and I eventually started seeing my father whenever I looked in the mirror. That was enough to force me into sobriety, quickly. I also experienced a lot of trouble in relationships during this period. The biggest problem was never being alone to grow and discover who I am. I always had to worry about a spouse and some of them were not really worth worrying about. I should have taken a few years to myself, and see that now, but I was younger and stupid and felt I needed a partner. I drew inner comfort from a bottle and the warmth of a body beside me.

Over the last few years, I have dated sporatically but have remained single for much of it. I kept myself at the shallowist of commitment levels in any relationship and with my friends too. I feel like I've let some people down over this period but I obviously needed to be alone for some personal growth. I can say that this has helped me immensly. Since I turned 18, I was never alone for more than a week or two, there was always a woman. When I hit 28, my ex (the mother of my child) felt we weren't right for each other and moved on with her life. This was a hurt I had never experienced in my life and it devastated me. I spent 6 months crying myself to sleep, however, I also had a chance to do a lot of thinking after the fact. I saw a lot in myself that I wasn't comfortable with and still see room for change in my life to date. The best part of this is, that I can actually look into my life from outside the box and be a bit judgemental on myself. It's really helped me change some root problems I feel I've had all along but never took the time out to examine.

I must say that I am envious of one trait you have that I simply cannot adapt. You say your parents had a lot to do with the person you were and once you realized that and dealt with it, you are now able to respect your parents and even discuss it. In this aspect you are a far bigger man than I can ever hope to be. I am an amiable/expressive, in fact, I'm right on the border. I act toward people based on my very first impressions of them and treat them accordingly. This may not sound like a bad thing but it truly is. Should you put a knife in my back or break my trust, you have little or no chance of ever cleaning it up. Unless I see some obvious core changes in that person then the bridge is burned and demolished mentally in my mind. We all make mistakes and I take this into account but if it's not a mistake but a character flaw, then I'd rather not waste my time knowing you.

I'm not sure how that all sounds but it is at the core of who I am. For example, my father is a chain smoking alcoholic. I do love him as my father but have little respect for him and wouldn't really go out of my way to help him if he was in need. I spent my childhood opening beer, stocking the fridge, taking away empties and stacking the cases in the shed. These are my strongest childhood memories and likely at the core of why I drink rarely and even more rarely in front of my daughter. I have had a beer or two in front of my daughter at celebrations or camping but have never gotten blitzed or even buzzed. Of course one may argue that I shouldn't have ever hoisted in front of my daugher but I would strongly disagree. I never pretend to be something I'm not in the eyes of my child, I refuse to! I treat her with the utmost of care, respect and love that only an adoring parent can give his child. If I ever got wind that my daughter echo'd my words of my father about me then I'd die. Just to end this thought, I only talk to my father a handful of times throughout the year, usually less. He has toned down the drinking now due to medical reasons, family was never a part of his motivation. Not only does that truly piss me off but it is at the core of who I'm becoming.

I'd like to finish this rambling by saying my personal growth cycle is not yet complete. I'm not really sure if it will ever be either since I'm constantly re-evaluating who I am. I'm not perfect but I am aware of my flaws and continually look inwardly to evaluate my life. I'd be lying if I said I'm where I want to be but I'm on the road and making headway. I've let a lot of people slide out of my life but have a few great people that I still keep close. I've gained a lot of experience out of my life and wouldn't change it for the world but there is a lot in there that if given a choice to re-live it I'd chose no. I am strongly aware of this and it is the pattern that I'm weaving my life to.

Ramble over :oops: