Mountain Top Removal

[John]

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Mondo

No proof they are bad? I assume your being sarcastic?!

No.

In fact, I would classify fossil fuels as doing more to benefit mankind than any other natural resource.

I doubt you would like living very long without them.


Before you disagree, you need to consider life without a computer (plastic made from ethylene), and the electricity that runs it (most is coal generated).

[Vautrin]

It is not a black / white isse. You could say the Revolutionary War is bad because people died in it, but it produced a greater good.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Vautrin

It is not a black / white isse. You could say the Revolutionary War is bad because people died in it, but it produced a greater good.

"Bad"..... yeah.......you could say The Black Plague was "Bad," but on the other hand, it really increased employment opportunities for everyone left alive.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by Scott

"Bad"..... yeah.......you could say The Black Plague was "Bad," but on the other hand, it really increased employment opportunities for everyone left alive.

Considering that Europe was pretty much feudalistic everywhere, and there was no free market of note (with the notable exception of some city states like Venice), that is not a real benefit. At the time you were practiclly born as a slave or a nobleman.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Vautrin

Considering that Europe was pretty much feudalistic everywhere, and there was no free market of note (with the notable exception of some city states like Venice), that is not a real benefit. At the time you were practiclly born as a slave or a nobleman.

WAS..."it WAS pretty much feudalistic"....and would have REMAINED that way without the Black Plague.

As for Europe's economy, it did not escape the ravages of the Plague. All across Europe thousands died and among those thousands were farmers, artisans, serfs, and lords. ....... Feudal Europe fell apart making way for new structures of prosperity through entrepreneurial capitol.

Also

In Western Europe, the sudden shortage of cheap labour provided an incentive for landlords to compete for peasants with wages and freedoms, an innovation that, some argue, represents the roots of capitalism, and the resulting social upheaval caused the Renaissance and even Reformation. In many ways the Black Death and its aftermath improved the situation of surviving peasants, notably by the end of the 15th century. In Western Europe, labourers gained more power and were more in demand because of the shortage of labour. In gaining more power, workers following the Black Death often moved away from annual contracts in favour of taking on successive temporary jobs that offered higher wages.[58] Workers such as servants now had the opportunity to leave their current employment to seek better paying, more attractive positions in areas previous off limits to them.[59] Another positive aspect of the period was that there was more fertile land available to the population; however, the benefits would not be fully realized until 1470, nearly 120 years later, when overall population levels finally began to rise again.

I Lurve History.

[Vautrin]

WAS..."it WAS pretty much feudalistic"....and would have REMAINED that way without the Black Plague.

I disagree on that. It may have accelerated some social processes, but it was not a necessary precondition for the events that followed. But even before it struck in 1347, the position of the Catholic church was already under threat from various city states and proto-capitalist entrepreneurs. Something that likely enough would have resulted in the same social and economic upheaval, albeit that it would be expressed differently or at another time.

It would take until about 1700-1800 until the guild system collapsed, and that is long after the Netherlands became the first "capitalist" nation.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Vautrin

I disagree on that. It may have accelerated some social processes, but it was not a necessary precondition for the events that followed. But even before it struck in 1347, the position of the Catholic church was already under threat from various city states and proto-capitalist entrepreneurs. Something that likely enough would have resulted in the same social and economic upheaval, albeit that it would be expressed differently or at another time.

It would take until about 1700-1800 until the guild system collapsed, and that is long after the Netherlands became the first "capitalist" nation.

Of course, there's no certainty about what may have happened without the plague, but I never imagined that the year after the plague, capitalism took root and grew into what we know today. However, it seems very reasonable that the feudalistic society that preceeded the plague was tremendously disrupted, and this parcipitated the beginnings of capitalism.

[Mondo]

Originally Posted by Scott

No.

In fact, I would classify fossil fuels as doing more to benefit mankind than any other natural resource.

I doubt you would like living very long without them.


Before you disagree, you need to consider life without a computer (plastic made from ethylene), and the electricity that runs it (most is coal generated).

Ever been to Newark and looked at New York from there? Ever been to Mumbai? I think we need to find ways to live without them after seeing the atmosphere in those cities.

I'd rather find alternatives to make those things than continue to use them. Fossil fuels may give us some neat things but they can be made and generated in other cleaner ways.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Mondo

Ever been to Newark and looked at New York from there? Ever been to Mumbai? I think we need to find ways to live without them after seeing the atmosphere in those cities.

I'd rather find alternatives to make those things than continue to use them. Fossil fuels may give us some neat things but they can be made and generated in other cleaner ways.

Sure.


London during 1850 was covered with soot from coal burning. Ever wonder why pictures from the 19th century have everyone wearing Black? They weren't all going to a funeral. Their clothing was constantly being covered with soot.

Newark and NYC....same thing.....all of these cities have made tremendous advances in pollution abatement. Do you hear about ACID RAIN anymore? No, not so much. Why? Simply because smokestacks now are required to have scrubbers.

Its really easy to SAY "Fossil fuels may give us some neat things but they can be made and generated in other cleaner ways." You mean USED in cleaner ways. There's ONLY one way to make "Fossil Fuels." And they are being used in cleaner ways. On road diesel now must have a sulfur specification of less than 15 ppm. That's NOT a freaking easy spec. to meet, but its being done.

Plastics are made from fossil fuels: ethane, methane, propane, butane. You CANNOT make plastic without these basic building blocks. Food packaging and storage depends very much on this packaging. Many medical devices also depend on it. All electrical devices depend on it.

[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by Scott

Its really easy to SAY "Fossil fuels may give us some neat things but they can be made and generated in other cleaner ways." You mean USED in cleaner ways. There's ONLY one way to make "Fossil Fuels." And they are being used in cleaner ways. On road diesel now must have a sulfur specification of less than 15 ppm. That's NOT a freaking easy spec. to meet, but its being done.

I think Mondo was not referring to fossil fuels but the products, which can be made in alternative ways.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Vautrin

I think Mondo was not referring to fossil fuels but the products, which can be made in alternative ways.

Sure, actually, there's a way to make "sythetic fossil fuel" from biomass (weeds). Of course, it only costs $20/gallon. People in Mumbay don't have $20/gallon, and there are MANY people in Mumbay.

The same can be said for most fossil fuel substitutes.

The concept that BILLIONS of people, most of whom have very few resources, would choose the most expensive resource to use, despite the availability of Much cheaper resources, is absurd.