[Vautrin]

Originally Posted by sweetbilly

Personally, I feel the proof is in the pudding. Right now in the Middle East all we see are American troops bringing food, medical aid and peace of mind to hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians who, under their beloved Muslim leader Saddam Hussein, were tortured, murdered and oppressed for more than 30 years.

And how did Saddam rise to power? Was the CIA a Russian institution? I think not. Was Saddam not beloved by a certain Mr. Reagan for standing up against evil Iran, in the Gulf War of the eighties? So why did the US not mind to support an evil leader at that time?

The rest of the world sat by and did nothing at all to help them free themselves.

It is even worse. After the Kuwait war, the Americans promised a lot of minorities in Iraq support if they rose against Mr. Saddam. Support that never came. And because the support never came, Mr. Saddam was given the perfect opportunity to strike down the rebellion. If you want to blame Saddam for that, you must also look at the behavior of the coalition at the time. It was a bit less heroic on the end, than we often imagine.

The gratitude we get for this: car bombings, murders of American troops on a daily basis and threats to kill all Americans in the name of their religion.

And you have never met an American who threatens that the US should kill all unbelievers?

In fact, just to prove my point, we are still referred to as the Crusaders this alone should prove good or bad intentions. I tend to believe in actions far more than I do words. And I see no actions of good faith, by any country, throughout the Middle East. In fact, all I ever see are American flag burnings and threats against Westerners.

Funny thing is, many of the people in the Middle East have the same issue. Does that prove that they are right and the US is wrong? No. It only suggests that the two regions are not too enthusiastic about each other.

By the way, the gross national income of Iraq matched or just exceeded the gross national income of the United States just a few years ago; due to petroleum sales around the globe. Of course this was before the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein. And all of that money went to a country the size of the State of California which was ruled by a tyrannical madman seeking the world's most deadly weapons; for who knows what!

A tyrannical madman, that had the support of the US for most of his rule, certainly up to the Kuwait war. And as you can imagine the wealth of the nation was not as equally divided in Iraq (or Saudi-Arabia for instance) as it is in the US. And even in the US it is far from equally divided.

That's just the money collected by one Arabic country! Imagine what the total money made on oil profits throughout the Middle East is, and then imagine the extent of damage that could be done if most of these countries with their great wealth, murderous fundamentalist beliefs, and desire to procure these weapons could do if get their hands on them! OMG, and you want us to standby into nothing at all?

Ever heard of Exxon, of Shell, of BP et cetera. These are Western companies, who make the real profit. If 159 litres cost on average $22 or thereabout that means only $0.15 per litre of oil. That includes production costs, profit by the company. What these countries earn by oil sales is a lot less than we imagine it to be.

Oh, and of course we don't get to hear how the money collected by the United Nations, for dues, which is supposed to be used for food, clothing, shelter, medicine etc... is misappropriated and instead misused for the training of Palestinian terrorists against their Israeli neighbors.

They could not even get pencils. Because the carbon might be used to coat plains and such. So what could they get for their money then? It is hard to write with cardboard. If that does not have a military use.

The Palestinian State did not exist at the time. So the "neighbors" you refer to were actually occupation forces. That sounds a lot less friendly, now does it not? Because it is. And Israel gets a sponsorship of $3 billion a year from the US alone. Money which was partly used to continue the occupation. I.e. sponsoring terrorist activities.

Instead of using that money to build houses, schools or buy clothing and food they are using it for militaristic training and weapons purchases so they can kill people just a few miles away whom they associate with Western powers.

They could not even get pencils. What good can a school do, if teachers are not even allowed to actually teach the pupils?

Personally, I like to hear an answer as to why they feel they have to kill Israelis on a daily basis?

Um, and these people want answers, on the question why they have been kicked out of there country 57 years ago, and still are left without any compensation. I imagine the people of Utah going all to be in a hippy mood if the US President would sell the State to Canada, and Canada would kick everyone, without the slightest compensation ...

Not to mention, why is it that only Western powers, if these people are so oppressed, are the only ones providing this money? There are negligible funds being provided to Palestinians by other Arabic countries, such as Iran, Iraq, Sudan or Saudi Arabia for food, clothing, shelter etc.....

Try collecting $10,000 a person a year, if that person makes the equivalent of $3 a day.

I would like to know why they keep their borders closed if these people are in such dire straits and why these other countries, if they're so interested in the Palestinian people's welfare, don't simply allow them to work and live in their countries?

One of the problems is that the Palestinians are being used by some dictators as pawns in a game. And nothing more. And quite a few of these "Presidents" (as we are supposed to call, say Mubarrak) use the cause of the Palestinians to lessen discontent in their own country, to take an "anti-American" stance. While conveniently forgetting that the rule of said President depends on Western support.

So I don't buy into the concept that these people are oppressed and framed by Western powers, they simply aren't. If they are oppressed, its by their own people for their twisted beliefs;

Oppression is not simply an idea. It is based in reality. And ideas are a reflection of the experience of reality. If Israel can legally kill, and ignore all kinds of conventions (whether or not they signed it is irrelevant), why should people who are opposed to Israel (who cannot even be bound to such treaties, as their State does simply not exist) be bound to the same treaties? It does not make sense. And the same is true for the US.

If you ask my opinion, the Muslim powers-that-be are intentionally oppressing and misleading, through propaganda, their own people in the hope that they will act exactly as they have done so the world will feel sympathetic toward their cause, so they can justify their war against the so-called Crusaders and so that they continue their personal vendetta against Westerners (while deceitfully redirecting the cause and effect relationship so they can keep their power in their own country).

Absolutely true. The only problem with the theory is that the whole "proof" Blair and Bush have presented to the world, has been proven to be total propaganda itself. It is not a comforting thought, I admit to that.

And just to prove my point, look at the popularity of Bin Laden. Who do you think would gain power in these countries once the powers that currently are aren't anymore?

You mean, if the US would withdraw support in Saudi-Arabia, and Egypt? Who knows. It might be dictator. It might be Muslim fundamentalists (very strange that the US barely takes issues with that in Saudi-Arabia, is not it?)

It is also my feelings that all of this is being done just so that fundamentalists can wage their own personal Jihad against westerners and gain total power. So yes, I guess I do believe there is a conspiracy, however, it's not being perpetrated by Americans.

There are a lot of conspiracies. Some cancelling each other out. Some perpetrated by States. And some by ideological groups. When and where it all ends? I would not know. But I am not optimistic that things are improving.